• Re: Fraud

    From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Tue Jan 19 19:13:00 2021
    Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: Gamgee to Dream Master on Mon Jan 18 2021 09:15 pm

    Your last sentence is not a "solution", it's a continuation of the
    problem (abuse/fraud). It removes the incentive for lazy fucks to
    work, because they can do almost/as good by not working. So that's
    what they do. It's also the classic Lefty/socialist plank in the Dem platform. So, no thanks, that's no solution. Also, it's not a
    black/white thing, there are just as many moochers regardless of
    color. If the government cracked down on abuse, and the assholes
    realized they had to work if they want to eat, well....... they'd
    fuckin work.

    Yet, who cares?

    Well, I do, for one. There are quite a few million others who do too.

    What incentives do people have if they
    constantly remain in poverty?

    You said it right there. The incentive is to get out of poverty.

    If all you can do is work at
    McDonald's for the rest of your life, are you going to attempt to
    better yourself?

    Yes, I am. I'm going to prove them wrong, and better myself.

    If all you've ever been told is "You're not
    smart enough to go to college, you're not smart enough to get a
    better job," and if you believe it, all you are going to do is
    work at McDonald's and continue being in poverty.

    Some will. Some others will work 2 or 3 jobs, find a way to get some education, etc... Attend a trade school instead of college. Do
    *SOMETHING* to help yourself, instead of continuing the problem.

    For those that insist on doing *NOTHING*, well..... I don't have much
    pity for them. Sorry, not sorry. Help yourself if you can't find
    somebody else to help you.

    DM Worse, there
    are people who are the "intentionally homeless" because their
    income doesn't afford them the ability to own a home or pay rent
    yet they can have a cell phone... so, they live in community
    dwellings or in tent cities. (btw, I am using McDonald's as an
    example of companies who pay low wages with zero benefits.)

    Yep, those are the kind of people who fall into the "fuck 'em"
    category for me. If you can spend all that money on the latest cell
    phone, and $300 sneakers, etc... then you should be helping yourself.

    If you read history, you'll clearly see that white conservative
    leaning people have always tagged black individuals as consumers
    of social programs, yet, this isn't true. The argument for
    social programs is to help the masses yet conservatives won't
    step out of their comfort zone and actually help the masses
    because the narrative they've been "taught" is that they are
    paying for others (read black) laziness.

    You seem to insist on keeping the black/racism element alive in the conversation. I've already said that if anything, the majority of
    welfare program abusers are not black. There's no color/race thing
    going on here. Fraud and abuse have no place, and that is exactly why
    these programs don't help those who actually need the help. If the
    fucking abuse was removed, the programs could serve those who really
    need it, and serve them well enough to lift them out of the vicious
    circle of poverty. But the political left won't let that happen, for
    reasons that I've already stated. It would ruin them politically.

    It's fairly clear that we're on opposite ends of the political
    spectrum, but at least we're having a reasonable conversation. I have
    trouble understanding how Leftists can possibly defend the social
    programs that we have, knowing they do almost no good for the
    recipients, and knowing that these programs could be fixed if we would
    just weed out the bad apples and enforce/punish violators. It's hard
    to swallow that they are willing to make people suffer that much, just
    in order to keep their "base" around to vote them back for another
    term, endlessly. I think it's shameful, and actually criminal.

    Don't even get me started on illegal immigration and open borders.



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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to GAMGEE on Tue Jan 19 13:28:00 2021
    It's not a false narrative, and "faith" has nothing to do with it.
    It's simple abuse/fraud, that the left condones, because it keeps
    their voters dependent on them, and guarantees they (the lefty
    politicians) will continue to receive their votes.

    +1.


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  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Gamgee on Tue Jan 19 16:37:00 2021
    Hello Gamgee!

    ** On Monday 18.01.21 - 21:15, Gamgee wrote to Dream Master:

    ..If the government cracked down on abuse, and the assholes
    realized they had to work if they want to eat, well.......
    they'd fuckin work.

    There are ways to remain "professionally unemployable". Simply
    do not change your clothes, maintain poor hygiene, and act
    stupid. No one will want to employ you. Meanwhile the gov't
    will pay you welfare for life, and add a disability benefit for
    your mental condition.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Wed Jan 20 09:28:41 2021
    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: Dream Master to Gamgee on Tue Jan 19 2021 06:54 am

    I think you give poor, working class or uneducated people far less credit than they
    deserve.

    There is uneducated people I know with no studies who has health issues, plenty of
    kids, and who struggle to make it past each month... and some of them are trying to
    get studies, get different jobs and in general improve their standing, every single
    day. And those who are serious about it usually end up better.

    Then you have people who has safe ok paid jobs who drop their employment because the
    job is not cool enough and it is more comfy to get lower paying job and let their
    boyfriend compensate for the difference.

    I am not really on board with the idea that if you have no studies you are a failure.
    If anything we have a surplus of degreed people who ends up working at fast foods
    because there is no need for 800 biology professors in a town with 1000 inhabitants :(
    In fact I think it is very likely that if you spent the time to get a degree you lack
    real professional experience - experience that you should have gotten with the degree
    with was most likely never gathered at college. You are going to learn more about
    engineering kicking a boiler into functioning than in two months of Applied Thermodynamics at college.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Arelor on Wed Jan 20 12:21:37 2021
    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: Arelor to Dream Master on Wed Jan 20 2021 09:28 am

    I am not really on board with the idea that if you have no studies you are a failure. If anything we have a surplus of degreed people who ends up working at fast foods because there is no need for 800 biology professors in a town with 1000 inhabitants :( In fact I think it is very likely that if you spent the time to get a degree you lack real professional experience - experience that you should have gotten with the degree with was most likely never gathered at college. You are going to learn more about engineering kicking a boiler into functioning than in two months of Applied Thermodynamics at college.

    I think that's true for some jobs & situations. But there are jobs where a college education or some kind of certification is beneficial. Would you want to see a surgeon who hasn't had an education and is learning on the job?

    I'm a softawre engineer who went to college for it. I've worked with one or two people who people who were self-studied in software development - I think it's possible to be a good software developer that way, though people without the educational background might not be familiar with some things that people with the educational background would know. There was one person I worked with who was self-taught in software development, and sometimes we'd mention some things related to software development or math & things we learned in college, and he'd say he wasn't familiar with that.

    Nightfox

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  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Nightfox on Wed Jan 20 15:26:13 2021
    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Jan 20 2021 12:21 pm

    I'm a softawre engineer who went to college for it. I've worked with one or two people who people who were self-studied in software development - I think it's possible to be a good software developer that way, though people without the educational background might not be familiar with some things that people with the educational background would know. There was one person I worked with who was self-taught in software development, and sometimes we'd mention some things related to software development or math & things we learned in college, and he'd say he wasn't familiar with that.

    Although I applaud you for obtaining a college education for software engineering, I believe it is very possible to become an amazing engineer simply through self-study, trial and error, and working towards a goal. Like everything in this world, we learn by doing. Colleges teach us how to do something but not why we do it. For example, when I was in college, they were teaching Pascal first then would move onto C and eventually ASM. I, for one, found the professors a little too eccentric (okay, they were children of the 60s and it showed) for my extremely even level-headed personality. So, I stopped going. I eventually dropped out of college and focused on Systems Administration and Engineering.

    It's interesting to see college graduates who've focused on Systems Administration and Engineering. They may have four to six years of college behind them but they simply have no clue. Don't get me wrong, they understand the concepts but don't comprehend why. My thirty years in the field, the trial and error, the self-study, they've all paid off. Would I go back to college for that piece of paper, it's an ongoing debate for me, but I likely would. But my point remains and your argument makes sense: "...mention some things related to software development or math & things we learned in college, and he'd say he wasn't familiar..." would immediately trigger me to investigate, learn, adapt, and be prepared for our next discussion.

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Wed Jan 20 18:27:49 2021
    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Jan 20 2021 12:21 pm

    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: Arelor to Dream Master on Wed Jan 20 2021 09:28 am

    I am not really on board with the idea that if you have no studies you a failure. If anything we have a surplus of degreed people who ends up working at fast foods because there is no need for 800 biology professo in a town with 1000 inhabitants :( In fact I think it is very likely th if you spent the time to get a degree you lack real professional experience - experience that you should have gotten with the degree wit was most likely never gathered at college. You are going to learn more about engineering kicking a boiler into functioning than in two months Applied Thermodynamics at college.

    I think that's true for some jobs & situations. But there are jobs where a college education or some kind of certification is beneficial. Would you wa to see a surgeon who hasn't had an education and is learning on the job?

    I'm a softawre engineer who went to college for it. I've worked with one or two people who people who were self-studied in software development - I thin it's possible to be a good software developer that way, though people withou the educational background might not be familiar with some things that peopl with the educational background would know. There was one person I worked w who was self-taught in software development, and sometimes we'd mention some things related to software development or math & things we learned in colleg and he'd say he wasn't familiar with that.

    Nightfox


    It used to be the case that the way a would-be surgeon would become a surgeon was to work with an actual surgeon and help him opening people up :-) Last time the subject came up with a thraumatologist around, he mentioned that there are some things you may learn in the classroom, but for some delicate stuff he could see no way to learn it but by close experience.

    I am not tlking about becoming good at a job without having a degree. I am talking about this modern idea that unless you get one of these jobs that requires a degree, you are a hopeless failure. There is a lot of people who seem to think that if you don't become a doctor or a lawyer and end up being a salesman you screwed up in life.

    There are plenty succesful people with no University experience who prove that line wrong.

    Also, there are Computer Science students doing their last year that don't know that passwords are to be stored in hashed form, what TLS is, and could not code a line of C++ for the life of them. When I went to HP's boot camp the general feeling in the place was that people was learning more in 2 months there than in 2 years in college.

    Man, you managed to get me a bit depresed.


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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to GAMGEE on Wed Jan 20 16:37:00 2021
    DM Worse, there
    are people who are the "intentionally homeless" because their
    income doesn't afford them the ability to own a home or pay rent
    yet they can have a cell phone... so, they live in community
    dwellings or in tent cities. (btw, I am using McDonald's as an
    example of companies who pay low wages with zero benefits.)

    Yep, those are the kind of people who fall into the "fuck 'em"
    category for me. If you can spend all that money on the latest cell
    phone, and $300 sneakers, etc... then you should be helping yourself.

    When I was younger and was out with my grandfather, if we happened to drive through a "rough" part of town in his 10+ y/o car, he'd point out all of
    the very new, top name cars and large TV antennas (this was the 70's/80's) outside of houses that were half falling down.

    His point was similar to yours.

    You seem to insist on keeping the black/racism element alive in the conversation. I've already said that if anything, the majority of
    welfare program abusers are not black. There's no color/race thing
    going on here. Fraud and abuse have no place, and that is exactly why
    these programs don't help those who actually need the help. If the
    fucking abuse was removed, the programs could serve those who really
    need it, and serve them well enough to lift them out of the vicious
    circle of poverty. But the political left won't let that happen, for
    reasons that I've already stated. It would ruin them politically.

    Exactly. The Democrats/left politicians don't want to help anyone out of poverty. They want to keep them there to manipulate them. Their best answer
    to poverty is not to lift anyone out... their way of leveling things is to bring the middle class down into poverty instead.


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  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Arelor on Wed Jan 20 18:13:00 2021
    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Jan 20 2021 06:27 pm

    It used to be the case that the way a would-be surgeon would become a surgeon was to work with an actual surgeon and help him opening people up :-) Last time the subject came up with a thraumatologist around, he mentioned that there are some things you may learn in the classroom, but for some delicate stuff he could see no way to learn it but by close experience.

    When I first got into large corporate IT, my boss told me, "Do not touch a thing without asking me first." I internally questioned why. What he was trying to teach me was to no longer think "how I would do it" but what is the best and most appropriate way to do things. As I proved myself, he let me go off and do whatever it took to get the job done. I ended up traveling the world for the company and stayed with them for over twenty years.

    I am not tlking about becoming good at a job without having a degree. I am talking about this modern idea that unless you get one of these jobs that requires a degree, you are a hopeless failure. There is a lot of people who seem to think that if you don't become a doctor or a lawyer and end up being a salesman you screwed up in life.

    The stigma of not going to college runs rampant through high schools. Both my oldest son and daughter (now 20 and 19 respectively) were told, very clearly, that they need to go to college or you won't get anywhere in life, won't be successful, and won't make any money. My son works at Costco, makes good money, has his own medical and dental insurance, and makes me proud. My daughter, she felt that college would be the only way for her to get into the field that interests her yet she chose the route of community college instead of a traditional four year college or university. She works and goes to school, I am equally proud of her.

    There are plenty succesful people with no University experience who prove that line wrong.

    For me, adding a degree would simply be an accomplishment. I started college after just turning 17. I stopped close to my 19th birthday. I repeated this all the way up to last year. For me, I simply want to say, "Damn it, I did it!" Will it get me more money, no. Will it give me a promotion, no. Will it make me feel good, yes.

    Also, there are Computer Science students doing their last year that don't know that passwords are to be stored in hashed form, what TLS is, and could not code a line of C++ for the life of them. When I went to HP's boot camp the general feeling in the place was that people was learning more in 2 months there than in 2 years in college.

    Back in 1997 I was asked by the owner of the company I worked at to interview candidates who just passed a retraining program in California for displaced engineers (EEs). These were extremely smart men and women and excellent test takers. I asked a very simple question, "What is the record type in DNS to translate a hostname to IP address?" Every candidate that I interviewed couldn't answer it. So, I changed it up. "What port number is DNS?" The answer, "53". Excellent! They knew what DNS is, how to communicate to it, but absolutely no idea about its internals.

    Man, you managed to get me a bit depresed.

    I am sorry. When I look back, I realize the mistakes I made, the missteps I took, and the poor choices I've made. I also realize that I learned from all of those making me better at what I do.

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

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  • From hollowone@VERT/AMIGAC to Dream Master on Thu Jan 21 12:01:00 2021
    Dream Master wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: Dr. What to Immortal on Sun Jan 17 2021 08:47 am

    I always suggest that you read "1984" by George Orwell. It pretty much describes what the Lefties want.

    You know what I want? I want people to be protected socially,
    physically, and economically. I don't want medical bills bankrupting people. I want to see our roads, bridges, and waterways without holes, not rusting, and clean and safe. I want people to stop confusing
    social programs with socialism.

    But hey, fuck us all. Let's have anarchy and everyone fend for themselves. If a friend of mine goes bankrupt because they got cancer, well, fuck 'em.


    I so much hate this left vs. right conversation naming people with sarcasm to highlight where they belong.

    In my country everybody who is not right-winged conservative is called a "Leftie" more often.
    In avenge, everybody who does not have nationalistic aspiration with only one god definition that is catholic, with only one definition of justice that is _not_ justice for all and risking a lot of democratic institutions being built in last 30 years called these who support this idiocracy modern nazis..

    I refer to Poland of course.

    in my countries are only Lefties and Nazis... and there will be a civil war soon if we don't find the way to talk closer to the center.


    I miss so much world that was politically central with a bit of left aspiration toward social programs and support and progressiveness and tolerance to differences and a bit of rightism with tradition, self-empowerement and responsibility on the other side..

    But not too much left and not too much right otherwise we'll go directly into a revolution and civil wars to realize that nothing has changed, we just have more victims.


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  • From hollowone@VERT/AMIGAC to Dream Master on Thu Jan 21 12:02:00 2021
    Dream Master wrote to MRO <=-

    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: MRO to Dream Master on Sun Jan 17 2021 10:26 pm

    we have a fragile thing going on here. 2 more years of economic problems and we might be eating each other. we dont have what it takes to create a utopia where everything is handled.

    I'm not wanting a utopia, I simply want everyone to be able to live a
    good life without fear of going bankrupt because they got sick. The
    rest of world, nope. In the US, yep. Something is definitely wrong
    here.

    Europe has it (better medical plans), but it also has its own problems.


    Dream Master

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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Ogg on Thu Jan 21 08:38:00 2021
    Ogg wrote to Gamgee <=-

    There are ways to remain "professionally unemployable". Simply
    do not change your clothes, maintain poor hygiene, and act
    stupid. No one will want to employ you. Meanwhile the gov't
    will pay you welfare for life, and add a disability benefit for
    your mental condition.

    Too true, unfortunately.

    I've seen too many people who worked to become unemployable. Every reason
    they get turned down for a job is directly related to a (bad) decision that they made.


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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Dream Master on Thu Jan 21 08:25:32 2021
    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: Dream Master to Nightfox on Wed Jan 20 2021 03:26 pm

    Like everything in this world, we learn by doing. Colleges teach us how to do something but not why we do it. For example, when I was in college, they were teaching Pascal first then would move onto C and eventually ASM.

    For some things, I'd think you might already know why you'd do it.. I already knew why I wanted to go into software engineering - I enjoyed it and thought it would be a good way to make a living.

    It's interesting to see college graduates who've focused on Systems Administration and Engineering. They may have four to six years of college behind them but they simply have no clue. Don't get me wrong, they understand the concepts but don't comprehend why. My thirty years in the field, the trial and error, the self-study, they've all paid off. Would I

    Anyone who is new in the field would lack experience, whether they went to college or not. Everyone starts somewhere. Even if you do self-study, you're new at some point and lack experience. So I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say about having a college education. It sounds like you're saying having a college education can be pointless..?

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Arelor on Thu Jan 21 08:33:21 2021
    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Jan 20 2021 06:27 pm

    Also, there are Computer Science students doing their last year that don't know that passwords are to be stored in hashed form, what TLS is, and could not code a line of C++ for the life of them. When I went to HP's boot camp the general feeling in the place was that people was learning more in 2 months there than in 2 years in college.

    I'm tempted to say it's probably the fault of the colleges for passing students like that, or not including some vital information in their curriculum, etc.. I think I went through a fairly good program in college, but I was also already fairly familiar with computers and knew what I was getting into.

    I've heard of computer science programs in college that teach mainly the concepts and may have a few classes in programming. I've also heard of electrical engineering students who end up in software jobs. The program I was in was specifically software engineering, and we had a lot of instruction in writing software and hands-on practice writing code. After they taught object-oriented concepts in the first term, we started writing C++ code in the second term. I had already taken some programming classes before that though (I had taken CS160 and 161, which were a couple terms of programming with C++ at my college I was going to at the time).

    Nightfox

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dr. What on Thu Jan 21 21:29:26 2021
    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: Dr. What to Ogg on Thu Jan 21 2021 08:38 am

    Ogg wrote to Gamgee <=-

    There are ways to remain "professionally unemployable". Simply
    do not change your clothes, maintain poor hygiene, and act
    stupid. No one will want to employ you. Meanwhile the gov't
    will pay you welfare for life, and add a disability benefit for
    your mental condition.

    Too true, unfortunately.

    I've seen too many people who worked to become unemployable. Every reason they get turned down for a job is directly related to a (bad) decision that they made.


    i live in a state that is usually called a welfare state. people could have a bunch of kids and do better than upper middle class by living off the system.

    i've seen people that love doing drugs just get disability.
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  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to MRO on Thu Jan 21 22:40:11 2021
    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: MRO to Dr. What on Thu Jan 21 2021 09:29 pm

    i live in a state that is usually called a welfare state. people could have a bunch of kids and do better than upper middle class by living off the system.

    It's interesting to note that in Colorado, where the cost of living is fairly consistent throughout the Front Range (basically, everything east of the Rocky Mountains), a family of five should clear $100K annually. I won't disagree with you as the system considers you underpaid if you make less than $7,475/month ($89.7K/year). Have more kids, that number improves. For example, if you have 4 people in the family, that number is $114K/year.

    i've seen people that love doing drugs just get disability.

    It makes sense. Hell, alcoholism is considered a disability.

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Fri Jan 22 03:22:09 2021
    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: Dream Master to MRO on Thu Jan 21 2021 10:40 pm

    i've seen people that love doing drugs just get disability.

    It makes sense. Hell, alcoholism is considered a disability.

    A sound tech I know swears that one of her friends is trying to cause permanent neurological damage on himself in order to get
    government funds, via marihuana abuse :-P

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  • From paulie420@VERT/BEERS20 to MRO on Fri Jan 22 07:55:00 2021
    i live in a state that is usually called a welfare state. people could have a bunch of kids and do better than upper middle class by living off the system.

    i've seen people that love doing drugs just get disability.

    My parents were ministers and as such did a lot of charity work with the public. Through the years, I have seen generations of welfare families... and how they literally groom their children to GET the disability.

    I hate to say it, but its like they raise up idiots on purpose, just to qualify for checks because there is learning issues or......... whatever will check the boxes and make the checks come in.

    Its sad. And now, I wish I would have listened more.
    :P



    |07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
    |08.........
  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Arelor on Fri Jan 22 08:27:55 2021
    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: Arelor to Dream Master on Fri Jan 22 2021 03:22 am

    A sound tech I know swears that one of her friends is trying to cause permanent neurological damage on himself in order to get government funds, via marihuana abuse :-P

    Oh, that's messed up. I get that life can be hard, but damn!

    At my former company, we had an employee who worked for us for about a year then suddenly got afflicted with some problem that caused him to go on disability. We understood and were saddened when he informed us that he was going on disability and that he was hopeful to be back soon. Six months to the day, he showed back up to work. Why? Disability was paid at 100% for 8 weeks, 80% from 8 weeks to 26, and then would go down to 50% from week 26 on. He worked for a week and went back on disability again for a slightly different ailment. Wash, rinse, and repeat. He did this for a little over two years. The company finally changed their disability policy. He was RIF'd during COVID (it was the only way they could get rid of him).

    I hate people that take advantage of a system designed to help.

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to PAULIE420 on Fri Jan 22 16:22:00 2021
    I hate to say it, but its like they raise up idiots on purpose, just to qualify
    for checks because there is learning issues or......... whatever will check the
    boxes and make the checks come in.

    Over the years, I never knew for certain that parents/families were doing
    that, but I did catch on sometimes when I was younger than parents of other kids seemed to discourage their academic curiousity... i.e. they'd make fun
    of them if they did something smart, moreso than they would if they did something dumb.

    Its sad. And now, I wish I would have listened more.

    I think everyone reaches a certain age where they wish they'd listened more about this or that. It is a symptom of getting older and wiser.


    * SLMR 2.1a * A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man. -J.Springfield

    ---
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  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Dumas Walker on Fri Jan 22 22:54:19 2021
    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: Dumas Walker to PAULIE420 on Fri Jan 22 2021 04:22 pm

    I think everyone reaches a certain age where they wish they'd listened more about this or that. It is a symptom of getting older and wiser.

    My parents never pushed for college, it was something I wanted to do. Neither of my parents have degrees but both had successful careers in defense and finance. As I've gotten older, I see what my parents did wrong with me and I am trying not to do the same with my children.

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dream Master on Sat Jan 23 02:28:14 2021
    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: Dream Master to Dumas Walker on Fri Jan 22 2021 10:54 pm

    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: Dumas Walker to PAULIE420 on Fri Jan 22 2021 04:22 pm

    I think everyone reaches a certain age where they wish they'd listened
    more about this or that. It is a symptom of getting older and wiser.

    My parents never pushed for college, it was something I wanted to do. Neither of my parents have degrees but both had successful careers in defense and finance. As I've gotten older, I see what my parents did wrong with me and I am trying not to do the same with my children.


    well, it's important to go for something useful. i know a woman who spent a lot of time in college and she's just a car porter now.

    i dropped out of college because of the program they had being fucking whacko in various ways and i needed to make money.

    i have more skills than most college educated people and i'm just as smart or smarter. at my job i'd say that only like 5% of us have a brain. they hire these people that have all these degrees and they bomb out after 1 year.
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dumas Walker on Sat Jan 23 04:05:44 2021
    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: Dumas Walker to PAULIE420 on Fri Jan 22 2021 04:22 pm

    Over the years, I never knew for certain that parents/families were doing that, but I did catch on sometimes when I was younger than parents of other kids seemed to discourage their academic
    curiousity... i.e. they'd make fun
    of them if they did something smart, moreso than they would if they did something dumb.

    It is not only the parents. It is the other kids and, often, teachers.

    It is a if society was trying to normaliz mediocrity.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

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  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Dream Master on Sat Jan 23 09:27:00 2021
    Hello Dream!

    ** On Thursday 21.01.21 - 22:40, Dream Master wrote to MRO:

    i've seen people that love doing drugs just get disability.

    It makes sense. Hell, alcoholism is considered a disability.

    I know a fellow who clears about $4K/mo! with various disability
    funding, old-age security, and gov't pension supplements, and
    he's not even a Canadian citizen - just a landed immigrant.

    He *is* in rather poor shape (being just barely 10 years older
    then me), used to be a heavy smoker and drinker, and now needs
    to be tied to an oxygen tank all the time.


    --- OpenXP 5.0.48
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Sat Jan 23 10:17:38 2021
    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: MRO to Dream Master on Sat Jan 23 2021 02:28 am

    i have more skills than most college educated people and i'm just as smart or smarter. at my job i'd say that only like 5% of us have a brain. they hire these people that have all these degrees and they bomb out after 1 year.

    Well if you can get hired and get some working experience, after a while your experience tends to be more important than your educational background. It seems to me a college education is often mainly to help get you started. If you have years of experience, then the degree you got years ago probably matters less than it did when right after you graduated.

    Nightfox

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DREAM MASTER on Sat Jan 23 09:55:00 2021
    I think everyone reaches a certain age where they wish they'd listened more >> about this or that. It is a symptom of getting older and wiser.

    My parents never pushed for college, it was something I wanted to do. Neither >f my parents have degrees but both had successful careers in defense and financ
    . As I've gotten older, I see what my parents did wrong with me and I am tryin
    not to do the same with my children.

    My father pushed for it. Mom less so. I don't think I would push a kid
    into college unless they had a good idea of what they wanted to do with
    their life. Pushing them in otherwise is just wasting money.

    There are a few things I might be smarter at than my parents because they
    were not educated in whatever it is or don't have experience with it.
    Since I am one who believes that experience is often the better teacher,
    there are still a lot of things they are the smart ones for , for sure.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "The Metric System is the tool of the Devil!" - Granpa S

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Sat Jan 23 09:47:00 2021
    well, it's important to go for something useful. i know a woman who spent a lot
    of time in college and she's just a car porter now.

    Political Science? Humanities? Gender Studies? Performing Arts?

    i dropped out of college because of the program they had being fucking whacko
    various ways and i needed to make money.

    I almost ran out of money and almost had to. They kept switching stuff
    around and making it real difficult to get all of the last classes you
    needed to graduate.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Usually a man with flowers has deflowering in mind...

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Sat Jan 23 16:10:38 2021
    Re: Re: Fraud
    By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Sat Jan 23 2021 09:47 am

    well, it's important to go for something useful. i know a woman who
    spent a
    lot
    of time in college and she's just a car porter now.

    Political Science? Humanities? Gender Studies? Performing Arts?


    i think this was history and social studies.

    i dropped out of college because of the program they had being fucking
    whacko various ways and i needed to make money.

    I almost ran out of money and almost had to. They kept switching stuff around and making it real difficult to get all of the last classes you needed to graduate.

    yeah that's what i ran into. and there would be a course i would have to take and it would be gone and they didnt know when it would come back. and the classes were day and night. i have a life, i needed to make money, i was taking care of my son, and i didnt live in their bullshit world of weird protocols.
    ---
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  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Ogg on Sat Jan 23 23:49:18 2021
    Re: Fraud
    By: Ogg to Dream Master on Sat Jan 23 2021 09:27 am

    I know a fellow who clears about $4K/mo! with various disability
    funding, old-age security, and gov't pension supplements, and
    he's not even a Canadian citizen - just a landed immigrant.

    Holy shit! See, I'd go nuts if I wasn't working. This guy has it made and he is doing nothing but mooching off the system.

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ARELOR on Sun Jan 24 09:27:00 2021
    It is a if society was trying to normaliz mediocrity.

    I think that is exactly what they are trying to do. It is easier to
    "level" the playing field by doing things to hamper the smarter kids (and
    also the more successful adults) than it is to make any attempt to help
    those who are in need.

    The Democrats in the USA have taught us that.


    * SLMR 2.1a * A restless eye across a weary room...

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Sun Jan 24 09:48:00 2021
    yeah that's what i ran into. and there would be a course i would have to take >nd it would be gone and they didnt know when it would come back. and the class
    s were day and night. i have a life, i needed to make money, i was taking care >f my son, and i didnt live in their bullshit world of weird protocols.

    The college I attended, a large state-run university, got into some trouble
    a few years after I graduated for pulling stunts in order to get more money
    out of their students. I was not surprised at all.


    * SLMR 2.1a * ...a host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance...

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to OGG on Sun Jan 24 09:57:00 2021
    I know a fellow who clears about $4K/mo! with various disability
    funding, old-age security, and gov't pension supplements, and
    he's not even a Canadian citizen - just a landed immigrant.

    That is part of the reason why I cannot figure out why some people want
    that ability here. Canada is a beautiful country and most everyone speaks English. Just move up there, or lead your caravan up there. Why stop in
    the USA where we don't already do all the things you want?


    * SLMR 2.1a * If you chose not to decide, you still have made a choice!

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Sun Jan 24 22:43:56 2021
    Re: Fraud
    By: Dumas Walker to OGG on Sun Jan 24 2021 09:57 am

    I know a fellow who clears about $4K/mo! with various disability
    funding, old-age security, and gov't pension supplements, and
    he's not even a Canadian citizen - just a landed immigrant.

    That is part of the reason why I cannot figure out why some people want that ability here. Canada is a beautiful country and most everyone speaks English. Just move up there, or lead your caravan up there. Why stop in the USA where we don't already do all the things you want?


    i dont think canada is that welcoming but i think we should put that caravan on a boat to canada with some film crews to ease it along :D
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  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to MRO on Mon Jan 25 09:58:08 2021
    On 2021-01-24 11:43 p.m., MRO wrote:

    i dont think canada is that welcoming but i think we should put that caravan on a boat to canada with some film crews to ease it along :D

    I agree, contrary to what people thing, not just anybody can get in. For
    a skilled worked which it can make it easier we are taking of a multi
    years process not unlike us immigration. We do deport and have detention center etc.

    We have health care, disability pensions etc. but we also have to make
    sure it's sustainable with tax money from a working population.

    People think it's socialism here. Nah. People work, pay taxes. We
    probably pay more tax, but we get more benefit when old, disabled or
    sick. Nothing is free, someone pay for it. We are as pissed at people
    abusing the system as much as you are in the U.S. about people abusing
    the system in your country.

    We have health care because paying for it to an insurance company
    instead of a universal program, what is the difference. A private
    company will work to improve efficiency in order to maximize profit. A government program will want to maximize efficiency in order to make the voters happy and reduce taxes and getting re-elected.

    And finally for most, are your ready to plea allegiance to a queen ?

    But above all for a case of a caravan from Mexico wanted to cross the
    united state to come to Canada, well you have this :

    Canada-U.S. Safe Third Country Agreement

    "Under the Canada-U.S. Safe Third Country Agreement, persons seeking
    refugee protection must make a claim in the first country they arrive in (United States or Canada)"

    They could say they want to come to Canada and disappear along the way
    in nature. Government of any countries are not crazy about illegal immigration.

    ---
    Synchronet MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Ennev on Mon Jan 25 08:15:51 2021
    Re: move to Canada they say
    By: Ennev to MRO on Mon Jan 25 2021 09:58 am

    i dont think canada is that welcoming but i think we should put that
    caravan on a boat to canada with some film crews to ease it along :D

    I agree, contrary to what people thing, not just anybody can get in. For a skilled worked which it can make it easier we are taking of a multi years process not unlike us immigration. We do deport and have detention center etc.

    I don't doubt Canada has a process to get in, but my impression has been Canada might be easier to get into than the US. I've talked to people online from other countries who have visited or moved to Canada but haven't visited the US (that I know of). I suppose for some, they just wanted to be in Canada. I've also known some people from Brazil who have had a hard time getting into the US, but one who was able to visit Canada.

    Nightfox

    ---
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  • From Tortillaretreat@VERT/CIAD to MRO on Mon Jan 25 10:13:24 2021
    Re: Fraud
    By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Sun Jan 24 2021 10:43 pm

    That is part of the reason why I cannot figure out why some people want that ability here. Canada is a beautiful country
    and most everyone speaks English. Just move up there, or lead your caravan up there. Why stop in the USA where we don't
    already do all the things you want?

    I've always been of the opinion that you should make your best reasonable effort to improve the conditions of your own country before heading out, but you do you, man. Do what the Buzzfeed readers said they would in 2016 and accept that this country is beyond saving in time.

    ---
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  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Nightfox on Mon Jan 25 13:40:17 2021
    On 2021-01-25 11:15 a.m., Nightfox wrote:

    En> I agree, contrary to what people thing, not just anybody can get in. For
    En> a skilled worked which it can make it easier we are taking of a multi
    En> years process not unlike us immigration. We do deport and have detention
    En> center etc.


    It might be easier to get into Canada, but it's not automatic. Usually
    if you can prove that you have a job contract with a Canadian employer
    and no criminal past it's doable (but your stay can be locked to the
    job, lose the job and you might have to leave). For immigration in
    general it work on a point system, so you get point on mastery of the language, education, etc. There is a fixed numbers of immigrant every
    year and your score will help to get picked. They is also factors like reassembling families and humanitarian reason. Just one can't just
    assume you can permanent residency just like that :-D

    What I hate is that in some countries there is phony agency that tell
    people that for a price they can get easier residency, but it's a scam.
    People get defrauded then blame Canada.

    Visitor? they are welcome. But for example a Brazilian visitor would
    need to obtain a visa first. But an American would not.

    Naturally a visitor would not be allowed to work nor would receive free
    health care etc.

    What change in the last decade I think is that now people immigrate to
    Canada to live in Canada. In the past we where more a "gateway" to the
    U.S. I had a lot of former co-workers that came to Canada so it would be easier to find then a job in the U.S. This seem to be less of a case.
    Here in Montreal we get a lot of French, because it's naturally easier
    to find work in french, they love the opportunity to live in a less
    regulated society (compared to France) where moving up the ladder is
    less hard or to start business. But the rest is also true in the rest of Canada if you master English.

    ---
    Synchronet MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -
  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Tortillaretreat on Mon Jan 25 15:04:04 2021
    On 2021-01-25 12:13 p.m., Tortillaretreat wrote:

    I've always been of the opinion that you should make your best reasonable effort to improve the conditions of your own country before heading out, but you do you, man. Do what the Buzzfeed readers said they would in 2016 and accept that this country is beyond saving in time.

    Yes, how can you improve your country if your leaving it? If an
    oppressor is to come you just leave and give him free range? It's like
    not voting in an election and then whine about it's result.

    I also get that maybe the country you live in change to a point where
    your not recognizing yourself in it anymore, like being part of a
    minority that would never have a voice, then yes, maybe moving somewhere
    that is more in line with your values is a good choice.

    But when we where hearing "If Trump win I move out!" really? Every 4
    years your going to reassess where you going to live depending on who
    will win the next election? That's how much you care about the country
    that raised you? I've never heard that discourse from republicans at
    least not as much. And what does it say about you are a new comer?

    Like in the united states before the independence, people weren't happy
    how things where ruled from England they seceded, people that weren't
    happy with that moved be to UK or moved up north. They small town I'm
    from was actually settled by loyalist (that's how we call them :-) ).

    But my point is that you just don't simply leave. Your a majorities of
    people that get oppressed, you fight, you protest. You just don't leave,
    at least not without trying. I don't mean you have to use violence,
    that's not my point. Canada didn't fire a shoot to gain independence,
    but I guess the process can then be much slower and in some case
    wouldn't simply work. Can't also say that US independence did not water
    down UK stubbornness. It definitely made life easier for the others
    colonies.

    ---
    Synchronet MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Ennev on Mon Jan 25 13:39:16 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they say
    By: Ennev to Nightfox on Mon Jan 25 2021 01:40 pm

    It might be easier to get into Canada, but it's not automatic. Usually
    if you can prove that you have a job contract with a Canadian employer and no criminal past it's doable (but your stay can be locked to the
    job, lose the job and you might have to leave). For immigration in general it work on a point system, so you get point on mastery of the language, education, etc. There is a fixed numbers of immigrant every year and your score will help to get picked. They is also factors like reassembling families and humanitarian reason. Just one can't just
    assume you can permanent residency just like that :-D

    Does mastery of the language include learning French? Or would it be enough to just have mastery of English? (or just French for that matter?)

    Does marriage to a Canadian citizen help with getting residency/citizenship in Canada?

    What I hate is that in some countries there is phony agency that tell people that for a price they can get easier residency, but it's a scam. People get defrauded then blame Canada.

    It's frustrating that people try to defraud people that way.

    Naturally a visitor would not be allowed to work nor would receive free health care etc.

    If a visitor is in Canada and has to go to a hospital for some reason, I'd assume they'd be billed for their hospital stay?

    What change in the last decade I think is that now people immigrate to Canada to live in Canada. In the past we where more a "gateway" to the U.S. I had a lot of former co-workers that came to Canada so it would be

    It seems to me Canada would be a decent place to live.
    One time when I was looking for work, I considered looking outside my state and even in Canada, because why not? I was looking into it and found that if I decided I'd want dual citizenship with Canada and the US, one consequence is I'd have to pay taxes to both the US and Canada, even if I was living in Canada (at least, that was my understanding).

    Nightfox

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  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Nightfox on Mon Jan 25 17:48:35 2021
    On 2021-01-25 4:39 p.m., Nightfox wrote:

    Does mastery of the language include learning French? Or would it be enough to just have mastery of English? (or just French for that matter?)

    Quebec (the official french province, but millions of french live in the
    rest of Canada) did gain the right to use french as a criteria for
    people immigrating in that province. You could even not be able to speak English and be welcomed anyway. If you intend to only live only in
    Quebec English in your daily life is not necessary. Federal law and law
    in that province are published in both official language and service
    also have to be given in both.

    Does marriage to a Canadian citizen help with getting residency/citizenship in Canada?

    Not automatic, the Canadian spouse would have to fill a spousal
    sponsorship application. This can get tricky.

    It's frustrating that people try to defraud people that way.

    I'm sure the same happen for would be U.S. immigrant, it's sad.

    If a visitor is in Canada and has to go to a hospital for some reason, I'd assume they'd be billed for their hospital stay?

    Yes, they would be charged, so it wise to get some travel insurance
    before visiting. Interesting fact, since each province and territory
    manage health care, it's also tricky for let's say, someone in Ontario
    to have care in Alberta, it's doable but then one province health care
    charge the other one, lot of paper work.

    It seems to me Canada would be a decent place to live.
    One time when I was looking for work, I considered looking outside my state and even in Canada, because why not? I was looking into it and found that if I decided I'd want dual citizenship with Canada and the US, one consequence is I'd have to pay taxes to both the US and Canada, even if I was living in Canada (at least, that was my understanding).

    Yeah, I've been around, have family living in the states. I'm happy in
    Canada, don't get me wrong I think US is fine, it's a great country, but
    i don't feel I'm missing opportunities and freedom here.

    For tax, at least at the Canadian end, if you life outside the country
    and don't have "Canadian income" (let's say you own a building in canada
    and you have tenant paying rent, that is a Canadian income) you don't
    have to pay taxes.

    I'm not sure but I do think US citizen do have to pay federal taxes even
    when living abroad. I remember hearing people giving away theirs
    American citizenship for that reason when they don't intend to come back.

    Dual citizenship is possible in Canada, except for some key roles.
    Sometime it depend of the political situation between the counties. A
    new Canadian does play allegiance to the queen at a ceremony, in a
    conflict one would have to choose or be deported. My brother in law had
    to give away his Canadian citizenship (his wife and 2 kids too) when he
    moved to the US, it was in the 90's now it's not a requirement, it
    depend of the time and the job you'll be occupying.

    The Queen? does it mean a Canadian is British too? No, queen of Canada
    and queen of England are to separate but concurrent title for her. All
    the commonwealth country have law they negotiate together so that we
    have all the same lay of succession, so that in a generation or 2 one
    would end up with a different king or queen. The title is more of a
    figure head, like the president of some country where all the power is delegated to the elected parliament.

    For the Canadian pension plan? how come that permanent resident can get
    it? Can a Canadian get it if he lived all his life abroad? You have to
    life at least 10 years in Canada (with a recognized status) to be eligible.

    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Mon Jan 25 16:34:00 2021
    That is part of the reason why I cannot figure out why some people want that ability here. Canada is a beautiful country and most everyone speaks
    English. Just move up there, or lead your caravan up there. Why stop in the USA where we don't already do all the things you want?

    i dont think canada is that welcoming but i think we should put that caravan o
    a boat to canada with some film crews to ease it along :D

    That was actually an unsaid part of my point. They are not that welcoming.
    Most countries are not, but many in those countries (like Al in Canada)
    and many here think the US should be.

    Sort of like the EU. They wanted the Balkan states to be welcoming to
    everyone coming across their borders in hopes that they'd stop there and
    not come on into their countries.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Life after death - is that Terminate and Stay Resident?

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ENNEV on Tue Jan 26 13:55:00 2021
    "Under the Canada-U.S. Safe Third Country Agreement, persons seeking
    refugee protection must make a claim in the first country they arrive in (United States or Canada)"

    Considering that any of the persons in question have to cross the US to get
    to Canada first, it sounds like Canada cooked up an idea and got some
    dummies here to agree with it. :)

    Yet, when the US wants Mexico or other Central American countries to do the same for us (make them claim it in the first country they get to), our administration gets called names.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Arnold Layne, don't do it again!

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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Ennev on Wed Jan 27 09:22:00 2021
    Ennev wrote to MRO <=-

    We have health care, disability pensions etc. but we also have to make sure it's sustainable with tax money from a working population.

    Similar to the Scandanavian "socialism" that Bernie keeps touting.
    They are very capitalist in wealth creation, but socialist in wealth distribution. So **everyone** pays in to the system (even the poor)
    to get the "free" health care, etc. That't the part the Bernie people
    keep neglecting to say: 50% tax on everyone.

    We have health care because paying for it to an insurance company
    instead of a universal program, what is the difference. A private
    company will work to improve efficiency in order to maximize profit. A government program will want to maximize efficiency in order to make
    the voters happy and reduce taxes and getting re-elected.

    You are extremely naive here. You got the private insurance company right
    but your way off the mark with the government program.

    The CEO of a company will get fired if he doesn't make happy customers
    and shareholders. But nothing will happen to the government officials who
    kill customers and the "shareholders" have no say since they don't get to vote those people in or our of office.

    Government programs are always horribly inefficient and loaded with graft. Going back to the Scandavian countries: many of them are trying to reduce
    or eliminate the government programs and convert them to private.


    ... Go ahead, correct my typos. I'll make more.
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Nightfox on Wed Jan 27 09:31:00 2021
    Nightfox wrote to Ennev <=-

    Does mastery of the language include learning French? Or would it be enough to just have mastery of English? (or just French for that
    matter?)

    I think you just have to get into the habit of adding "eh?" to the end
    of every sentance. 8)


    ... Invest in negotiable blondes...
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  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Dumas Walker on Wed Jan 27 11:36:21 2021
    On 2021-01-26 1:55 p.m., Dumas Walker wrote:

    Considering that any of the persons in question have to cross the US to get to Canada first, it sounds like Canada cooked up an idea and got some
    dummies here to agree with it. :)


    Yes, it was setup during Bush's years. At first it does look more
    interesting to Canadian that the US. We made a good deal on that one :-D

    But we do get boats with refugees in them. And a lot will fly to Canada
    and destroy theirs passport during the flight and claim status when they
    get to the customs.

    Per capita Canada take more refugee than thus U.S. Our population is
    only about 38 millions compared to the 332 millions across the borders.
    There is so much people we can take.

    Pierre Trudeau (father of the actual prime minister ) said in the 70's:

    " Living next to you (usa) is in some ways like sleeping with an
    elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered is the beast, if I
    can call it that, one is affected by every twitch and grunt. "

    I think the deal was more to save on border control between Canada/US

    The border Mexico/US : 1,954 mi
    The border Canada/US : 5,525 mi

    The border Canada/Us is mostly unguarded. At some crossing at night
    there not even staff, there a terminal and form so you can "self
    check-in". Some town are even sitting on the border. I think of that
    library in Vermont/Quebec that is literally on the line, inside on the
    floor there a line showing the demarcation. Since 9/11 it's more divided
    now, but theses places used to function as one town back then.

    I think the big problem in the US are people without status, they don't
    show at the border and ask for a status, they just go in and try to live
    there without status and create that shadow economy.

    Here what we had lately was a phenomenon call "Birth Tourism". Women
    traveling to Canada to give birth to babies who will automatically
    become Canadian citizens. Most of the time the mothers will leave with
    the baby without paying the bill. Then after many years will use the
    baby status to facilitate them obtaining a status in Canada.

    I don't know for the US, but here you are Canadian if you are born in
    Canada. Canadian parents having a baby abroad have to go trough steps so
    the kid can obtains citizenship, it's not automatic. Seen case where
    parent forgot to complete the process and the grown up kid end up with a
    lot of trouble.

    ---
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  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Dr. What on Wed Jan 27 11:50:25 2021
    On 2021-01-27 9:22 a.m., Dr. What wrote:

    You are extremely naive here. You got the private insurance company right but your way off the mark with the government program.

    The CEO of a company will get fired if he doesn't make happy customers
    and shareholders. But nothing will happen to the government officials who kill customers and the "shareholders" have no say since they don't get to vote
    those people in or our of office.

    Government programs are always horribly inefficient and loaded with graft. Going back to the Scandavian countries: many of them are trying to reduce
    or eliminate the government programs and convert them to private.

    Not everything is free, so I'll use that for an example.

    Dental is not free for adult, just young kids. But trough work you can subscribe to a dental plan. So you end up with a coverage and don't have
    to pay for what can be very expensive.

    But oddly when it's time to make the bill, because most of the time it's
    you the patient that pay and them claim the work insurance for a refund.

    Well theses dentist before fixing a price will always ask :
    "are you covered by an insurance?"

    Because yes, if you are insured they'll charge more.

    Also I think that there is collusion between companies. They won't try
    to offer you more if the next guys doesn't. It's not like you as a
    employee can pick, up to your boss.

    We did are still do experiment here where for example building a new
    hospital will be done with a Private/Public partnership. And the end the public always end to pay more to the private company than originally
    planned.

    I guess there is no perfect system.

    I think there can be a lot of collusion and corruption.

    In 2018 according to the OECD, the ten countries that spend the most on healthcare per person are:

    United States ($10,586)
    Switzerland ($7,317)
    Norway ($6,187)
    Germany ($5,986)
    Sweden ($5,447)
    Austria ($5,395)
    Denmark ($5,299)
    Netherlands ($5,288)
    Luxembourg ($5,070)
    Australia ($5,005)

    And yet life expectancy is theses countries are fairly the same.

    ---
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  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Dr. What on Wed Jan 27 11:54:47 2021
    On 2021-01-27 9:31 a.m., Dr. What wrote:

    I think you just have to get into the habit of adding "eh?" to the end
    of every sentance. 8)

    It's like saying that all American have a southern accent :-)

    There is regions indeed that use "eh?" but I do here it more from people
    from the maritime, but it's really in decline, younger people don't use
    that, usually it's elders.

    ---
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Dr. What on Thu Jan 28 01:21:00 2021
    Dr. What wrote to Ennev <=-

    @MSGID: <60118CF4.42546.dove-debate@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <600EDC80.11313.dove-debate@mtlgeek.synchro.net>
    Ennev wrote to MRO <=-

    We have health care, disability pensions etc. but we also have to make sure it's sustainable with tax money from a working population.

    Similar to the Scandanavian "socialism" that Bernie keeps touting.
    They are very capitalist in wealth creation, but socialist in wealth distribution. So **everyone** pays in to the system (even the poor)
    to get the "free" health care, etc. That't the part the Bernie people keep neglecting to say: 50% tax on everyone.

    We have health care because paying for it to an insurance company
    instead of a universal program, what is the difference. A private
    company will work to improve efficiency in order to maximize profit. A government program will want to maximize efficiency in order to make
    the voters happy and reduce taxes and getting re-elected.

    You are extremely naive here. You got the private insurance company
    right but your way off the mark with the government program.

    The CEO of a company will get fired if he doesn't make happy customers
    and shareholders. But nothing will happen to the government officials
    who kill customers and the "shareholders" have no say since they don't
    get to vote those people in or our of office.

    Government programs are always horribly inefficient and loaded with
    graft. Going back to the Scandavian countries: many of them are trying
    to reduce or eliminate the government programs and convert them to private.

    Scandinavia is as Capitalist as any other Capitalist country. Government spending isn't Socialism. Public ownership of the means of production is.

    By the way, the government is like a big company. We are all shareholders, but those that line their pockets are the big shareholders, we are just those that own a handful and have little sway at AGMs.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Ennev on Wed Jan 27 22:02:21 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Ennev to Dr. What on Wed Jan 27 2021 11:54 am

    On 2021-01-27 9:31 a.m., Dr. What wrote:

    I think you just have to get into the habit of adding "eh?" to the end
    of every sentance. 8)

    It's like saying that all American have a southern accent :-)

    There is regions indeed that use "eh?" but I do here it more from people from the maritime, but it's really in decline, younger people don't use that, usually it's elders.
    that, usually it's elders.

    i like 'aboot'
    ---
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Ennev on Thu Jan 28 06:20:16 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they say
    By: Ennev to Dr. What on Wed Jan 27 2021 11:50 am

    But oddly when it's time to make the bill, because most of the time it's
    you the patient that pay and them claim the work insurance for a refund.

    Well theses dentist before fixing a price will always ask :
    "are you covered by an insurance?"

    Because yes, if you are insured they'll charge more.

    Most Spanish insurances have a deal with a set of hospitals and doctors they want to work with.

    The doctor or hospital has to attend the patient's case, and the patient is only expected to show proof they have a working
    insurance plan (usually they just swipe the insurance card). The insurance company then pays the doctor or hospital an agreed
    amount per case, or treatment technique, by the end of the month.

    If you are not solving cases (people does not walk out of your clinic with your cases solved) or your stats are funky (you are
    filling for more surgeries than the insurance thinks are justified) you get an audit.

    The firm I work for got a practical monopoly in certain techniques because everybody else in the Autonomy failed their audits
    :-) We don't get to change the prices because prices have been signed for a certain time span, messured in years. Also if we
    got stupid, insurance companies would rather put the patient in a plane and ship him somewhere else.

    --
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Ennev on Thu Jan 28 06:34:40 2021
    Re: move to Canada they say
    By: Ennev to MRO on Mon Jan 25 2021 09:58 am

    We have health care because paying for it to an insurance company
    instead of a universal program, what is the difference. A private
    company will work to improve efficiency in order to maximize profit. A government program will want to maximize efficiency
    order to make the voters happy and reduce taxes and getting re-elected.

    Government programs exist to benefit the agents that design them.

    Sometimes they benefit the agent that designed them and benefit the public at the same time. Sometimes it does not.

    Lots of times you see infrastructure being built without being necessary at all, just because the agent commanding its
    execution is getting a cut. Oftentimes, the cut is actually legal.

    The agent in charge of a Government program does not need it to be good in order to generate votes. It needs it to look good.
    Machiavello already knew that. This is why we have Socialist governments berating other parties' administrations for budget
    cuts, while removing services from public healthcare themselves - they can make themselves appear to be more pro-public-welfare
    than the competitors while saving money.

    This is specially true when the Government itself owns radio and TV stations. If your infrastructure is failing, the only thing
    you need to do is to have your radio and TV tell everybody how badly somebody else is doing and half the population won't know
    our own programs are trash unless they need to use them themselves.

    A lot of shady programs from the administration get a pass because people don't know they exist.

    Last, but not least, if you launch a government program that puts a lot of employees into your payroll, you have just generated
    a lot of hostages. Now, this people is going to be forced to vote FOR YOU, or risk the next administration kicking them into
    unemployment. This means that if you create a government program that barely looks to be working (even if it is a waste of the
    tax payer's money), you suddenly have A LOT of people who is going to vote for you, campaign for you, and I dare say take a
    bullet for you, and it didn't cost you a dime because you built this political force with somebodyn else's money.

    The administration is like a private corporation in which nobody gives a damn as long as they are making money, and you have no
    option to opt out.

    --
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    ---
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  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Boraxman on Thu Jan 28 08:23:32 2021
    On 2021-01-27 9:21 a.m., Boraxman wrote:

    By the way, the government is like a big company. We are all shareholders, but
    those that line their pockets are the big shareholders, we are just those that
    own a handful and have little sway at AGMs.

    Yes, governments should be seen like this.

    ---
    Synchronet MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ENNEV on Thu Jan 28 13:20:00 2021
    I don't know for the US, but here you are Canadian if you are born in
    Canada. Canadian parents having a baby abroad have to go trough steps so
    the kid can obtains citizenship, it's not automatic. Seen case where
    parent forgot to complete the process and the grown up kid end up with a
    lot of trouble.

    We have/had the same thing in the USA. If your mother comes into the
    country and then gives birth, you are a citizen. As you pointed out, some parents do that, then use the kid as an "anchor baby" to try to get
    citizenship for themselves.

    On the other hand, in most cases I think a child born abroad to US citizens
    is considered a US citizen, although it may call into question their
    "natural born citizen" status should they even want to run for office (not
    sure about that).


    * SLMR 2.1a * A momentary lapse of reason that binds a life to a life..

    ---
    Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DR. WHAT on Thu Jan 28 13:37:00 2021
    Going back to the Scandavian countries: many of them are trying to reduce
    or eliminate the government programs and convert them to private.

    They should consult with Greece to see what happens when a government tries
    to ween the citizens off of the teet.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Wind in my hair - shifting and drifting...

    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ENNEV on Thu Jan 28 13:39:00 2021
    In 2018 according to the OECD, the ten countries that spend the most on healthcare per person are:

    United States ($10,586)
    Switzerland ($7,317)
    Norway ($6,187)
    Germany ($5,986)
    Sweden ($5,447)
    Austria ($5,395)
    Denmark ($5,299)
    Netherlands ($5,288)
    Luxembourg ($5,070)
    Australia ($5,005)

    Just for clarity, that means the government spends more per person? Interesting.


    * SLMR 2.1a * I can't pretend a stranger is a long-awaited friend...

    ---
    Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 28 18:38:51 2021
    On 2021-01-28 1:20 p.m., Dumas Walker wrote:

    On the other hand, in most cases I think a child born abroad to US citizens is considered a US citizen, although it may call into question their
    "natural born citizen" status should they even want to run for office (not sure about that).

    Yeah, I remember hearing that Ted Cruz was born in Canada from a
    American mother. Making his run for presidency being questioned.

    Here it's different, there is no such requirement of being born in the country.

    From memory even 2 of our head of state (being the governor general)
    one was born in Haiti and the other in Hong Kong (before retro cession).

    But you can't keep dual citizenship then.

    But I get it you would want a president that is clear of allegiance to
    another country.

    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 28 15:55:20 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Dumas Walker to ENNEV on Thu Jan 28 2021 01:20 pm

    We have/had the same thing in the USA. If your mother comes into the country and then gives birth, you are a citizen. As you pointed out, some parents do that, then use the kid as an "anchor baby" to try to get citizenship for themselves.

    I think I heard they repealed that, at least for non-citizens giving birth in the US, since there were many people coming to the US to give birth so their child would have US citizenship. But maybe I'm wrong.

    On the other hand, in most cases I think a child born abroad to US citizens is considered a US citizen, although it may call into question their "natural born citizen" status should they even want to run for office (not sure about that).

    Yeah, I think one of the qualifications to be US president is that you have to actually be born in the US, even if you're a US citizen. In some ways I'm not sure why that's a requirement - Someone could have been born abroad to US citizens and moved back to the US at an early age and grew up in the US. In that case, I think it's a bit unfair if they wouldn't qualify to be US president if they wanted to.

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Ennev on Thu Jan 28 15:57:28 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they say
    By: Ennev to Dr. What on Wed Jan 27 2021 11:50 am

    In 2018 according to the OECD, the ten countries that spend the most on healthcare per person are:

    United States ($10,586)
    Switzerland ($7,317)
    Norway ($6,187)
    Germany ($5,986)
    Sweden ($5,447)
    Austria ($5,395)
    Denmark ($5,299)
    Netherlands ($5,288)
    Luxembourg ($5,070)
    Australia ($5,005)


    I wonder how they count that. Is that just what individual citizens pay for their own healthcare, or does that also account for what the government pays in countries where healhcare is socialized?

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 28 18:44:59 2021
    On 2021-01-28 1:39 p.m., Dumas Walker wrote:

    United States ($10,586)
    Switzerland ($7,317)
    Norway ($6,187)
    Germany ($5,986)
    Sweden ($5,447)
    Austria ($5,395)
    Denmark ($5,299)
    Netherlands ($5,288)
    Luxembourg ($5,070)
    Australia ($5,005)

    Just for clarity, that means the government spends more per person? Interesting.

    Yes that's why it's puzzling that at that cost it's not universal for
    it's citizen.

    ---
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  • From IB Joe@VERT/JOESBBS to Nightfox on Thu Jan 28 17:57:00 2021
    On 28 Jan 2021, Nightfox said the following...
    Yeah, I think one of the qualifications to be US president is that you have to actually be born in the US, even if you're a US citizen. In
    some ways I'm not sure why that's a requirement - Someone could have
    been born abroad to US citizens and moved back to the US at an early age and grew up in the US. In that case, I think it's a bit unfair if they wouldn't qualify to be US president if they wanted to.

    Back in the day, during the founding, they didn't want someone from an other country, who may still have loyalties to that country, now running the US.

    Not sure if they'd follow it to the letter now.. Ted Cruz born in Canada, but a US citizen... John McCain born somewhere else, military base... he's a US citizen... I think Trump proved Obama wasn't a citizen and he became President.
    There U go...

    IB Joe
    AKA Joe Schweier
    SysOp of Joe's BBS
    -=JoesBBS.com=-

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    * Origin: JoesBBS.Com, Telnet:2323 SSH:2222 HTTP:80
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Dumas Walker on Thu Jan 28 18:26:12 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Dumas Walker to ENNEV on Thu Jan 28 2021 01:39 pm

    In 2018 according to the OECD, the ten countries that spend the most on healthcare per person are:

    United States ($10,586)
    Switzerland ($7,317)
    Norway ($6,187)
    Germany ($5,986)
    Sweden ($5,447)
    Austria ($5,395)
    Denmark ($5,299)
    Netherlands ($5,288)
    Luxembourg ($5,070)
    Australia ($5,005)

    Just for clarity, that means the government spends more per person?

    For even more clarity healthcare in the United States cost twice as much more then other countries. That's why the US is the highest on the list.

    ---
    Synchronet Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Ennev on Thu Jan 28 21:19:00 2021
    Ennev wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6012BAD5.11337.dove-debate@mtlgeek.synchro.net>
    @REPLY: <601211A2.19995.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    On 2021-01-27 9:21 a.m., Boraxman wrote:

    By the way, the government is like a big company. We are all shareholders,
    bu
    t
    those that line their pockets are the big shareholders, we are just those
    that

    own a handful and have little sway at AGMs.

    Yes, governments should be seen like this.

    I don't think they should by seen like this, not at all. The relationship between the citizen and their government is not based on 'stakeholderism' but duty. There is a mutual duty.


    We create insitutions to serve us. Shareholders don't create the company, or even if they did, it wouldn't be to serve them. Big difference there.

    The government PURPOSE is to ensure that the civilisation, the nation that we build works effectively for our wellbeing and our sustained existance as a people. Our duty to the government is to protect our nation by ensuring that the government can do this effectively (and this in part involves policing the government).


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Nightfox on Thu Jan 28 22:27:56 2021
    On 2021-01-28 6:57 p.m., Nightfox wrote:


    I wonder how they count that. Is that just what individual citizens pay for their own healthcare, or does that also account for what the government pays in countries where healhcare is socialized?

    After check it's classified in "Government/compulsory"

    source : https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm

    ---
    Synchronet MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Fri Jan 29 04:55:36 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Boraxman to Ennev on Thu Jan 28 2021 09:19 pm

    Ennev wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6012BAD5.11337.dove-debate@mtlgeek.synchro.net>
    @REPLY: <601211A2.19995.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    On 2021-01-27 9:21 a.m., Boraxman wrote:

    By the way, the government is like a big company. We are all shareholders,
    bu
    t
    those that line their pockets are the big shareholders, we are just those
    that

    own a handful and have little sway at AGMs.

    Yes, governments should be seen like this.

    I don't think they should by seen like this, not at all. The relationship between the citizen and their government is not
    based on 'stakeholderism' but duty. There is a mutual duty.


    We create insitutions to serve us. Shareholders don't create the company, or even if they did, it wouldn't be to serve them
    Big difference there.

    The government PURPOSE is to ensure that the civilisation, the nation that we build works effectively for our wellbeing and
    sustained existance as a people. Our duty to the government is to protect our nation by ensuring that the government can do
    this effectively (and this in part involves policing the government).


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    Thing is, people serves their own interests.

    A public officer is "people" first and "public officer" second, or third, or forth....

    There is a lot of people who seem to think that administration personal are magical light beings that are public officers
    first and foremost. Fat chance. If you are a town hall secretary it serves your interests better that more secretaries are
    hired, so you have to work less, than having a bumpy road you never use repaired.

    An administrator that has enough power WILL try to work less and make more money out of his position even if it is at the
    expense of the whole organization.

    The second thing is, big corporations suffer pretty much this same problem. The main difference is that you can opt out of
    being a customer of most corporations or at least reduce your relationship with them, so if they fail to keep their house tidy,
    it is a bit less of a problem.

    The government or the town hall can send the cops to shove a baton up your ass if you fail to purchase their services via
    taxes. And if you complain that the mayor is using all the money to fund his own propaganda campaign instead of helping the
    poor (for example) and therefore has no legit claim on your tax money, you'll get labeled a raving lunatic.

    My point is that governments are supposed to be something mystical and magical, but are built by people, in order to pursue
    that people's interests. If it didn't pursue their interests, they would not bother to build it. All this talk about a
    government made by the whole population for the whole population is jjust propaganda spread so the population keeps sustaining
    the lifestyle of the Administration's agents.


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

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  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Arelor on Fri Jan 29 08:06:30 2021
    On 2021-01-29 5:55 a.m., Arelor wrote:

    An administrator that has enough power WILL try to work less and make more money out of his position even if it is at the
    expense of the whole organization.

    My point is that governments are supposed to be something mystical and magical, but are built by people, in order to pursue
    that people's interests. If it didn't pursue their interests, they would not bother to build it. All this talk about a
    government made by the whole population for the whole population is jjust propaganda spread so the population keeps sustaining
    the lifestyle of the Administration's agents.

    That's why I use greed against this. Rotating auditor being promised
    nice bonuses when they identify irregularities. People will be people
    indeed you can't expect then to turn "angels" when they are in a public position.

    The bigger the machine gets the more chances of corruption at any levels.

    I'm not trying to demonstrate which system is better than another.
    Canadian healthcare for example is always a topic in our politics and is constantly being re-evaluated and adjusted.

    Nothing is perfect and everything should be reassess and examined
    continually, need changes and technologies etc.

    Life expectancy in 2020 in Canada is estimated at 82. Yet the national
    pension plan kick in when your 65. It was a system put in place when and
    1965 when life expectancy was much lower. Is it still sustainable now ?

    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to IB Joe on Fri Jan 29 08:21:57 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: IB Joe to Nightfox on Thu Jan 28 2021 05:57 pm

    Not sure if they'd follow it to the letter now.. Ted Cruz born in Canada, but a US citizen... John McCain born somewhere else, military base... he's a US citizen... I think Trump proved Obama wasn't a citizen and he became President. There U go...

    Ted Cruz and John McCain were never actually elected president of the US though. And I hadn't heard anything about Trump proving Obama wasn't a citizen.. I know there's a controvercy about where Obama was born, but I thought there was enough evidence showing he was born in Hawaii.

    Nightfox

    ---
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Ennev on Fri Jan 29 08:52:00 2021
    Ennev wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I guess there is no perfect system.

    I think there can be a lot of collusion and corruption.

    That's what happens when the consumer isn't involved.

    The doctors don't post prices for services. Money changes hands behind the scenes that we consumers don't see.

    Unless we look hard at the bill... er... statement to see what the doctor charged the insurance company for (and if I'm not paying anything, why
    look hard at the bill?) we won't see the charges for services not rendered.

    No. There's no perfect system. But we can keep borrowing the successes
    of others while dropping the failures and narrow in on something more
    prefect than today.

    But we know that socialized medicine isn't the answer. Well, I guess it
    could be the answer if the question was "how do we siphon off money from
    the health care market to line our own pockets?"


    ... But honey, I wouldn't be up so late on a faster machine!
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    Synchronet Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Boraxman on Fri Jan 29 08:55:00 2021
    Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Scandinavia is as Capitalist as any other Capitalist country.
    Government spending isn't Socialism. Public ownership of the means of production is.

    You need to get educated on "socialism" if you think it's only about public ownership.

    By the way, the government is like a big company.

    Then how do we fire the unelected, unappointed bureaucrats in our gov't
    who set the rules?

    We don't/can't. Therefore the gov't is NOT like a big company.


    ... "640K ought to be enough for anybody." (Bill Gates, 1981)
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Dumas Walker on Fri Jan 29 08:56:00 2021
    Dumas Walker wrote to DR. WHAT <=-

    Going back to the Scandavian countries: many of them are trying to reduce
    or eliminate the government programs and convert them to private.

    They should consult with Greece to see what happens when a government tries to ween the citizens off of the teet.

    Oh, ya. They admit it's hard and it will take a LONG time.

    Just think what it would take to eliminate Social Security here in the U.S.
    and replace it with private saving's plans.


    ... To test a man's character, give him power.
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    Synchronet Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Nightfox on Fri Jan 29 10:10:00 2021
    Nightfox wrote to Ennev <=-

    In 2018 according to the OECD, the ten countries that spend the most on healthcare per person are:

    United States ($10,586)
    Switzerland ($7,317)
    Norway ($6,187)
    Germany ($5,986)
    Sweden ($5,447)
    Austria ($5,395)
    Denmark ($5,299)
    Netherlands ($5,288)
    Luxembourg ($5,070)
    Australia ($5,005)

    I wonder how they count that. Is that just what individual citizens
    pay for their own healthcare, or does that also account for what the government pays in countries where healhcare is socialized?

    It looks like a forest level number.

    Amount of money spent on health care (private and public) / number of people


    ... Any given program, once running, is obsolete.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to HusTler on Fri Jan 29 10:13:00 2021
    HusTler wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

    For even more clarity healthcare in the United States cost twice as
    much more then other countries. That's why the US is the highest on the list.

    That's partly because of price controls in other countries.

    If a company comes up with a drug to cure XXX, that costs money. That
    gets factored in to the price of the drug.

    But if other countries only permit the company to sell it for less in
    their countries, the company still needs to make up the cost that they
    incurred developing it.

    Since the U.S. has no price controls, guess who eats that extra cost?


    ... You are an example of why some animals eat their young.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Dr. What on Fri Jan 29 14:39:57 2021
    On 2021-01-29 8:52 a.m., Dr. What wrote:

    Unless we look hard at the bill... er... statement to see what the doctor charged the insurance company for (and if I'm not paying anything, why
    look hard at the bill?) we won't see the charges for services not rendered.

    Actually there is a fix amount given to a doctor for a consultation.
    Weirdly doctors are private employee and do have to bill the gov with
    the healtcare care number of the patient a bit like if it was a credit
    card. To having Doctors in my family I do know that they get audited
    etc. Is there is still chance for fraud, yes, because some get caught
    and lose theirs licenses, do they all get caught? probably not.

    But we know that socialized medicine isn't the answer. Well, I guess it could be the answer if the question was "how do we siphon off money from
    the health care market to line our own pockets?"

    We prefer to call it here an "universal" program vs socialized, since
    it's part of your taxes and everybody pays. It's reassuring that if you
    lose a job you don't lose coverage. As a private person you want to
    start a business or freelance, you'll be freer to do it if you don't
    have the fear that you won't have healthcare for you and your kids. In a
    way it's a stimulus for innovation. And somehow it's kind, knowing that
    a sick kid would get care event if the parents are fucked up looser that
    don't bother to care about that.

    A nation should care about it's people, that's what nations are made
    of... people.

    ---
    Synchronet MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -
  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Dr. What on Fri Jan 29 14:51:58 2021
    On 2021-01-29 8:55 a.m., Dr. What wrote:

    We don't/can't. Therefore the gov't is NOT like a big company.

    I know know where you live, but here there is a principle of
    "Responsible government" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsible_government.

    In a nutshell a elected member of parliament (whatever if he's an mp, minister, prime-minister) is accountable legally for he's action and
    decision, but also for the department they represent or are responsible
    for. There is no principle of "presidential immunity". Is it perfect?
    no. But administrator and elected people do go to jail when they are
    found committing frauds and other crime.

    When I look how it work at Google and Facebook something, it's
    definitely not a gov't. Seem that you can get away with a lot, as long
    as the bring money in, morality and fairness just a detail overseen when
    it's in the way.

    ---
    Synchronet MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -
  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Dr. What on Fri Jan 29 14:53:47 2021
    On 2021-01-29 10:10 a.m., Dr. What wrote:

    Amount of money spent on health care (private and public) / number of people

    Yet it seem to show that in country where it's supposed to be run more efficiently by private company it doesn't get cheaper like it would be initially thought.

    ---
    Synchronet MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -
  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Dr. What on Fri Jan 29 15:03:11 2021
    On 2021-01-29 10:13 a.m., Dr. What wrote:
    HusTler wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

    Hu> For even more clarity healthcare in the United States cost twice as
    Hu> much more then other countries. That's why the US is the highest on the
    Hu> list.

    That's partly because of price controls in other countries.

    If a company comes up with a drug to cure XXX, that costs money. That
    gets factored in to the price of the drug.

    But if other countries only permit the company to sell it for less in
    their countries, the company still needs to make up the cost that they incurred developing it.

    Since the U.S. has no price controls, guess who eats that extra cost?

    Remember Martin Shkreli?

    What I find odd is that here price of medication is cheaper and contrary
    to what people in the US know, it's not covered by healthcare. People
    pays for it, so either you buy an insurance to cover them or it's out of
    your pockets. But now some province force you into theirs plan if you
    don't have one from your work ect. We do manufacture locally and do
    research, Montreal is still see as hub in biomedical research. How come
    it get to be less expensive? Not that much price fixing.

    ---
    Synchronet MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to ENNEV on Fri Jan 29 18:42:00 2021
    But you can't keep dual citizenship then.

    Yes, that is one thing we cannot (usually) have. There may be some
    exceptions but I am not aware of them.

    But I get it you would want a president that is clear of allegiance to another country.

    I think that was the idea back then for sure, especially someone who might
    have an allegiance to the Crown that we'd just freed ourselves from. :)


    * SLMR 2.1a * "Stamp Collection?? Ha-Ha!" - Nelson

    ---
    Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to NIGHTFOX on Fri Jan 29 18:44:00 2021
    We have/had the same thing in the USA. If your mother comes into the country and then gives birth, you are a citizen. As you pointed out, some parents do that, then use the kid as an "anchor baby" to try to get citizenship for themselves.

    I think I heard they repealed that, at least for non-citizens giving birth in t
    e US, since there were many people coming to the US to give birth so their chil
    would have US citizenship. But maybe I'm wrong.

    I know we were trying to but I am not certain if we did or not, either?

    Yeah, I think one of the qualifications to be US president is that you have to >ctually be born in the US, even if you're a US citizen. In some ways I'm not s
    re why that's a requirement - Someone could have been born abroad to US citizen
    and moved back to the US at an early age and grew up in the US. In that case,
    I think it's a bit unfair if they wouldn't qualify to be US president if they w
    nted to.

    I think it goes back to allegiances to other countries. They didn't want anyone who might have one, especially to the British.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "Hired goons????" - Homer

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to HUSTLER on Fri Jan 29 18:48:00 2021
    Just for clarity, that means the government spends more per person?

    For even more clarity healthcare in the United States cost twice as much more
    then other countries. That's why the US is the highest on the list.

    Part of the reason it costs more here is that we are footing the bill for
    other countries to have socialized medicine. Like, we pay extra to cover
    the R&D and effectively subsidize the health care in other countries.

    If we ever socialize ours, there are going to be some countries who are
    going to have to start charging their citizens more (raise their taxes or actually charge them). That gravy train would end.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "I am EVIL Homer! I am EVIL Homer!" - Homer

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Fri Jan 29 19:05:18 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Nightfox to IB Joe on Fri Jan 29 2021 08:21 am

    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: IB Joe to Nightfox on Thu Jan 28 2021 05:57 pm

    Not sure if they'd follow it to the letter now.. Ted Cruz born in
    Canada, but a US citizen... John McCain born somewhere else,
    military base... he's a US citizen... I think Trump proved Obama
    wasn't a citizen and he became President. There U go...

    Ted Cruz and John McCain were never actually elected president of the US though. And I hadn't heard anything about Trump proving Obama wasn't a citizen.. I know there's a controvercy about where Obama was born, but I thought there was enough evidence showing he was born in Hawaii.


    obama's mother was a flake. i'm pretty sure it's entirely possible that he was born in another country but someone did her a favor and had it be the usa. and i'm okay with that. that birth cert that obama provided was some pdf online that wasnt rasterized and you could drag and drop shit around on it. you cant do that with a scan.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Ennev on Fri Jan 29 19:08:34 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Ennev to Dr. What on Fri Jan 29 2021 03:03 pm

    Since the U.S. has no price controls, guess who eats that extra cost?

    Remember Martin Shkreli?

    What I find odd is that here price of medication is cheaper and contrary to what people in the US know, it's not covered by healthcare. People pays for it, so either you buy an insurance to cover them or it's out of your pockets. But now some province force you into theirs plan if you don't have one from your work ect. We do manufacture locally and do research, Montreal is still see as hub in biomedical research. How come it get to be less expensive? Not that much price fixing.


    martin also pointed out that the drug companies have programs so people dont have to go without drugs. the pharm companies want to gouge the insurance companies, not the people. also making money off of drugs is what funds research into other drugs. i dont think the guy was evil, he was just a smart guy with loose morals. whats messed up is they got him for white collar crime. all of his investors ended up better off because of his little unethical switcheroo with the funds.
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  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Nightfox on Fri Jan 29 22:05:13 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Nightfox to IB Joe on Fri Jan 29 2021 08:21 am

    Ted Cruz and John McCain were never actually elected president of the US though. And I hadn't heard anything about Trump proving Obama wasn't a citizen.. I know there's a controvercy about where Obama was born, but I thought there was enough evidence showing he was born in Hawaii.

    Like everything else in American politics, if someone in power says it, it must be true. Obama was born in Hawaii, McCain born on a US base, and Cruz was born in Canada. Who cares. I think the "natural born Citizen" clause of the Constitution is flawed. If you've lived here since childhood and are an American citizen (naturalized), that's good enough for me.

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
    Synchronet Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Arelor on Sat Jan 30 23:43:00 2021
    Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6013E9A8.3709.dove-debate@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <601337FB.20007.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Boraxman to Ennev on
    Thu Jan 28 2021 09:19 pm

    Ennev wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6012BAD5.11337.dove-debate@mtlgeek.synchro.net>
    @REPLY: <601211A2.19995.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    On 2021-01-27 9:21 a.m., Boraxman wrote:

    By the way, the government is like a big company. We are all
    shareholders
    ,
    bu
    t
    those that line their pockets are the big shareholders, we are just those
    that

    own a handful and have little sway at AGMs.

    Yes, governments should be seen like this.

    I don't think they should by seen like this, not at all. The relationship
    be
    tween the citizen and their government is not
    based on 'stakeholderism' but duty. There is a mutual duty.


    We create insitutions to serve us. Shareholders don't create the company,
    or
    even if they did, it wouldn't be to serve them
    Big difference there.

    The government PURPOSE is to ensure that the civilisation, the nation that
    we
    build works effectively for our wellbeing and
    sustained existance as a people. Our duty to the government is to protect
    ou
    r nation by ensuring that the government can do
    this effectively (and this in part involves policing the government).


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    Thing is, people serves their own interests.

    A public officer is "people" first and "public officer" second, or
    third, or forth....

    There is a lot of people who seem to think that administration personal are magical light beings that are public officers first and foremost.
    Fat chance. If you are a town hall secretary it serves your interests better that more secretaries are hired, so you have to work less, than having a bumpy road you never use repaired.

    An administrator that has enough power WILL try to work less and make
    more money out of his position even if it is at the expense of the
    whole organization.

    The second thing is, big corporations suffer pretty much this same problem. The main difference is that you can opt out of being a
    customer of most corporations or at least reduce your relationship with them, so if they fail to keep their house tidy, it is a bit less of a problem.

    The government or the town hall can send the cops to shove a baton up
    your ass if you fail to purchase their services via taxes. And if you complain that the mayor is using all the money to fund his own
    propaganda campaign instead of helping the poor (for example) and therefore has no legit claim on your tax money, you'll get labeled a raving lunatic.

    My point is that governments are supposed to be something mystical and magical, but are built by people, in order to pursue that people's interests. If it didn't pursue their interests, they would not bother
    to build it. All this talk about a government made by the whole
    population for the whole population is jjust propaganda spread so the population keeps sustaining the lifestyle of the Administration's
    agents.

    I agree. This is why the USA is an empire. The narrative is that the government itself is an entity that serves the state, not "a people". You know, the idea that anyone that comes to the USA and plays by the rules is now an American, and the governmet should serve them. WHO does the government serve exactly? Well, it isn't any specific people because its supposed to serve anyone who happens to be there equally. So it can only really serve itself.

    This might sound very unPC, but I think the modern idea that countries are just administrative regions, which can consist of anyone and everyone is the death of us. It has to be for OUR posterity, OUR nation, not other people, not a nation defined by the government, but a people, an organic nation.

    Because it is forbidden to see any alternative, the USA WILL COLLAPSE, because it is an empire. Empires are empires first, and nations second. Rome was that way too. When it become more about the Empire than about being Roman, it was on the path to collapse.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Dr. What on Sat Jan 30 23:45:00 2021
    Dr. What wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <60143B0E.42579.dove-debate@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <601211A2.19995.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Scandinavia is as Capitalist as any other Capitalist country.
    Government spending isn't Socialism. Public ownership of the means of production is.

    You need to get educated on "socialism" if you think it's only about public ownership.

    The means of production are privately owned. Technically, a country could be called more "Socialist", yet have lower taxes.
    By the way, the government is like a big company.

    Then how do we fire the unelected, unappointed bureaucrats in our gov't who set the rules?

    We don't/can't. Therefore the gov't is NOT like a big company.

    I didn't realise as an employee, I can fire those that run my company???

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Sat Jan 30 08:52:00 2021
    Dream Master wrote to Nightfox <=-

    Ted Cruz and John McCain were never actually elected president of the US though. And I hadn't heard anything about Trump proving Obama wasn't a citizen.. I know there's a controvercy about where Obama was born, but I thought there was enough evidence showing he was born in Hawaii.

    Like everything else in American politics, if someone in power
    says it, it must be true. Obama was born in Hawaii, McCain born
    on a US base, and Cruz was born in Canada. Who cares. I think
    the "natural born Citizen" clause of the Constitution is flawed.
    If you've lived here since childhood and are an American citizen (naturalized), that's good enough for me.

    Thankfully, "good enough for you" isn't good enough.

    You libs would like to gut the Constitution to better suit your
    agenda, but it's not gonna happen. The founders foresaw the likes of
    you. It's the only thing between you and tyranny, and you don't even
    realize it.



    ... Then the manure hit the rotary air displacement unit.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Gamgee on Sat Jan 30 11:14:14 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Gamgee to Dream Master on Sat Jan 30 2021 08:52 am

    You libs would like to gut the Constitution to better suit your
    agenda, but it's not gonna happen. The founders foresaw the likes of
    you. It's the only thing between you and tyranny, and you don't even realize it.

    See, that's where you're wrong. I completely support the Constitution and wish it would be upheld in its entirety. If I only knew what you believed in:

    - Establishment of religion or prohibiting a free press -- America should separate itself from a "defined" religion, Christianity, and laws shouldn't be made in support of some "mystical book". Free press, I completely agree. Yet, the free press should clearly indicate whether an article is factual versus opinion / fiction.

    - The right of the people to keep and bear Arms -- I completely support this. Everyone should be able to own guns with a stipulation. If you're a felon or have been accused or prosecuted for domestic violence, or have a mental illness, than you shouldn't be able to own a gun.

    - Unreasonable searches and seizure -- Again, completely agree.

    - Protecting against double jeopardy and self-incrimination -- Again, completely agree.

    - Speedy and public trial -- Again, completely agree.

    - Trial by jury -- Again, completely agree.

    - Excessive bail or fines -- Again, completely agree, yet it is used to punish the poor more than it is help them.

    - Denial or disparaging others -- Again, the government shouldn't infringe upon my personal rights including the right to an abortion.

    - No new powers or rights to the states -- the states need to follow federal requirements and laws.

    So, where am I disagreeing? I'm not. I believe in our Bill of Rights. Do you?

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
    Synchronet Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Dumas Walker on Sat Jan 30 10:06:20 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Dumas Walker to NIGHTFOX on Fri Jan 29 2021 06:44 pm

    Yeah, I think one of the qualifications to be US president is that you
    have to ctually be born in the US, even if you're a US citizen. In
    some ways I'm not s re why that's a requirement - Someone could have
    been born abroad to US citizen and moved back to the US at an early
    age and grew up in the US. In that case, I think it's a bit unfair if
    they wouldn't qualify to be US president if they w nted to.

    I think it goes back to allegiances to other countries. They didn't want anyone who might have one, especially to the British.

    I can understand that. But for someone who came to the US as a child or immediately after being born, it seems rather unlikely they would have strong alliances with other countries. Someone born in the US could even decide to switch sides at some point.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Sat Jan 30 15:50:00 2021
    Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-

    You libs would like to gut the Constitution to better suit your
    agenda, but it's not gonna happen. The founders foresaw the likes of
    you. It's the only thing between you and tyranny, and you don't even realize it.

    See, that's where you're wrong. I completely support the
    Constitution and wish it would be upheld in its entirety.

    Hmmmm.... really? Hold that thought...

    - The right of the people to keep and bear Arms -- I completely
    support this. Everyone should be able to own guns with a
    stipulation.

    Ahhhh! So, right there, you contradict yourself. You *DON'T*
    completely support this, because...... there is no "stipulation". You
    left out the most important line of the 2nd Amendment: "...shall not
    be infringed." Putting stipulations on it is...... infringement.

    If you're a felon or have been accused or prosecuted for domestic violence, or have a mental illness, than you shouldn't be able to
    own a gun.

    While I do agree with the above, for the most part, it again is in contradiction with the 2nd Amendment. Also, it is *COMPLETELY*
    unrealistic and un-enforceable. For example, I'd hazard a guess that
    MOST people with mental illness are never diagnosed. Also, what if
    you're a felon because of some completely non-violent crime. Should
    that take away your right to enjoy the sport of skeet shooting? Who
    gets to decide these questions? You? Me? Who?

    <SNIP stuff that I agree with>

    - Denial or disparaging others -- Again, the government shouldn't
    infringe upon my personal rights including the right to an
    abortion.

    But it's OK if they infringe upon your right to own a firearm?

    Where do you draw the line? See? The essence of the problem, right
    there.

    So, where am I disagreeing? I'm not. I believe in our Bill of
    Rights. Do you?

    I think I pointed out a few ways that you disagree, right there above.

    Yes, I do believe in it.



    ... Forbidden fruit is responsible for many a bad jam.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Sat Jan 30 18:30:39 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Nightfox to Dumas Walker on Sat Jan 30 2021 10:06 am

    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Dumas Walker to NIGHTFOX on Fri Jan 29 2021 06:44 pm

    Yeah, I think one of the qualifications to be US president is that you
    have to ctually be born in the US, even if you're a US citizen. In
    some ways I'm not s re why that's a requirement - Someone could have
    been born abroad to US citizen and moved back to the US at an early
    age and grew up in the US. In that case, I think it's a bit unfair if
    they wouldn't qualify to be US president if they w nted to.

    I think it goes back to allegiances to other countries. They didn't wan anyone who might have one, especially to the British.

    I can understand that. But for someone who came to the US as a child or immediately after being born, it seems rather unlikely they would have stron alliances with other countries. Someone born in the US could even decide to switch sides at some point.

    Nightfox


    I was born out of my current province of residence, in a province that is regarded as highly antagonistic towards my current province of residence.

    I was born in that province and lived there until I was 3 years old. Then the family moved back to my current province of residence.

    If I tell anybody I was born out or my family lived out for years we may face a bit of scorn or mistrust because we could have been infected by their ideas or something.


    Maybe they are right. If there was interprovince war at this point I would take the side of the province I was born in, because this one is a cess pit that can only be fixed with nukes.


    I think if a family moves out of country, have a baby and rise it for 3 to 5 years in foreign soil, there is a certain (small) risk that they will bring back a son carrying foreigner ideas, if not foreigner family interests.

    Most of my customers nowadays are in this outsider antagonistic province, because there is where my family established friendships and business contacts when I was born.

    I don't think I would make it into a law that only somebody born in the province may become a high rank politician in the province, but I certainly see the logic in passing it. Even if I think the risk is a bit overblown.

    Just thought I could share this.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Ennev on Sun Jan 31 10:38:00 2021
    Ennev wrote to Dr. What <=-

    We don't/can't. Therefore the gov't is NOT like a big company.

    I know know where you live, but here there is a principle of
    "Responsible government" (

    That's an oxymoron and completely outside reality.

    In a nutshell a elected member of parliament (whatever if he's an mp, minister, prime-minister) is accountable legally for he's action and decision, but also for the department they represent or are responsible for.

    Not in the U.S. Gov't officials have legal immunity for their decisions. Bureaucrats in agencies
    like the EPA, for example, are unelected and unappointed. It's near impossible to fire them. They are more
    likely to die or retire than be fired.


    ... I'm not lost, I'm "locationally challenged."
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Ennev on Sun Jan 31 10:39:00 2021
    Ennev wrote to Dr. What <=-

    On 2021-01-29 10:10 a.m., Dr. What wrote:

    Amount of money spent on health care (private and public) / number of people

    Yet it seem to show that in country where it's supposed to be run more efficiently by private company it doesn't get cheaper like it would be initially thought.

    Yes, but like I said, those are "forest numbers" and don't take many other things into account.

    One of the things I already pointed out was the price controls in other countries - which will make
    certain drugs and procedures cost less there, but will make it more expensive in countries without
    price controls.


    ... A short cut is the longest distance between two points.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Ennev on Sun Jan 31 10:41:00 2021
    Ennev wrote to Dr. What <=-

    That's partly because of price controls in other countries.

    If a company comes up with a drug to cure XXX, that costs money. That
    gets factored in to the price of the drug.

    But if other countries only permit the company to sell it for less in
    their countries, the company still needs to make up the cost that they incurred developing it.

    Since the U.S. has no price controls, guess who eats that extra cost?

    Remember Martin Shkreli?

    Never heard of him.

    What I find odd is that here price of medication is cheaper and
    contrary to what people in the US know, it's not covered by healthcare. People pays for it, so either you buy an insurance to cover them or
    it's out of your pockets. But now some province force you into theirs
    plan if you don't have one from your work ect. We do manufacture
    locally and do research, Montreal is still see as hub in biomedical research. How come it get to be less expensive? Not that much price fixing.

    I already explained that above. Please actually read it.


    ... When all else fails, spend money!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Dr. What on Mon Feb 1 08:05:09 2021
    On 2021-01-31 10:38 a.m., Dr. What wrote:

    Not in the U.S. Gov't officials have legal immunity for their decisions. Bureaucrats in agencies
    like the EPA, for example, are unelected and unappointed. It's near impossible
    to fire them. They are more
    likely to die or retire than be fired.

    Then you can really call that a democracy :-(

    Make me think of EU where is more and more ruled and regulated by mostly
    non elected people that will dictate with theirs "directive" law that
    need to be adopted by respective EU countries.

    How long will this last? Look that stunt this weekend with UK. OH we
    have a deal but we'll suspend it. Already sound like the big guys
    kicking the small ones.

    ---
    Synchronet MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -
  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Dr. What on Mon Feb 1 08:06:57 2021
    On 2021-01-31 10:39 a.m., Dr. What wrote:

    One of the things I already pointed out was the price controls in other countries - which will make
    certain drugs and procedures cost less there, but will make it more expensive in countries without
    price controls.

    Most of the time it's for generic medication out of patent.

    In a way this system has been going on for years in many countries, it
    look sustainable.

    ---
    Synchronet MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Ennev on Tue Feb 2 08:44:00 2021
    Ennev wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Not in the U.S. Gov't officials have legal immunity for their decisions. Bureaucrats in agencies
    like the EPA, for example, are unelected and unappointed. It's near impossible
    to fire them. They are more
    likely to die or retire than be fired.

    Then you can really call that a democracy :-(

    Ya, not even close to a democracy.

    What's happened over many decades is that more and more of the rule making power has moved to the bureaucracy. Then the legislature (unconstitutionally) ceded authority to the bureaucracy (You might remember the "we have to pass
    the law before we can know what's in it" from Pelosi.).

    So the legislature basically passes a law that says "Agency X has the authority to make the rules governing Y." So a bunch of unelected, unaccountable
    morons get to, effectively, make law.

    And the Supreme Court has a policy of defering to the "experts" (supposedly
    the people in said bureaucracy).

    Make me think of EU where is more and more ruled and regulated by
    mostly non elected people that will dictate with theirs "directive" law that need to be adopted by respective EU countries.

    I thought that was the main reason the UK wanted out of the EU.

    How long will this last? Look that stunt this weekend with UK. OH we
    have a deal but we'll suspend it. Already sound like the big guys
    kicking the small ones.

    That's what happens at the beginning. But it always ends poorly. Usually
    for everyone.


    ... You're not losing more hair, you're gaining more scalp.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Ennev on Tue Feb 2 08:47:00 2021
    Ennev wrote to Dr. What <=-

    One of the things I already pointed out was the price controls in other countries - which will make
    certain drugs and procedures cost less there, but will make it more
    expensive
    in countries without
    price controls.

    Most of the time it's for generic medication out of patent.

    But the root problem is that if a company makes a medicine, and it costs $5/pill, if a country has a price control on that so that it can only be
    sold there for $2/pill.

    The company who makes the medicine has a choice:
    1. Don't sell it in that country.
    2. Sell it for $2/pill in that country, but sell it for $8/pill in countries without price controls.

    In a way this system has been going on for years in many countries, it look sustainable.

    That's short term think.


    ... I'm not dead, I'm metabolically challenged.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Dr. What on Tue Feb 2 13:00:51 2021
    On 2021-02-02 8:44 a.m., Dr. What wrote:

    En> Make me think of EU where is more and more ruled and regulated by
    En> mostly non elected people that will dictate with theirs "directive" law
    En> that need to be adopted by respective EU countries.

    I thought that was the main reason the UK wanted out of the EU.

    It was, and I surprised that others member of the union are OK with that (directives from above).

    ---
    Synchronet MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DR. WHAT on Tue Feb 2 16:29:00 2021
    The company who makes the medicine has a choice:
    1. Don't sell it in that country.
    2. Sell it for $2/pill in that country, but sell it for $8/pill in countries without price controls.

    If the US ever goes to price controls or socializes, no one else will be able to afford the $2/pill any more.


    * SLMR 2.1a * SHOCKING TRUTH: 50% of all people are below average....

    ---
    Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Dumas Walker on Tue Feb 2 21:42:15 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Dumas Walker to DR. WHAT on Tue Feb 02 2021 04:29 pm

    If the US ever goes to price controls or socializes, no one else will be able to afford the $2/pill any more.

    Do you have evidence to prove this claim?

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
    Synchronet Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DREAM MASTER on Wed Feb 3 13:56:00 2021
    If the US ever goes to price controls or socializes, no one else will be able to afford the $2/pill any more.

    Do you have evidence to prove this claim?

    It is pretty well known that the prices in the US subsidize the lower
    prices charged elsewhere. If we go on price control, either someone else
    is going to pay more or we are going to stop having access to some
    medications.

    Even if we tell the drug companies they cannot make a profit, and they
    don't turn around and exit the market, someone has to pay to cover the R&D and overhead costs. Nothing is free.


    * SLMR 2.1a * If you trade freedom for security, you get neither.

    ---
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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Nightfox on Thu Feb 4 03:45:46 2021
    On 1/28/2021 4:57 PM, Nightfox wrote:
    In 2018 according to the OECD, the ten countries that spend
    the most on healthcare per person are:

    United States ($10,586)
    Switzerland ($7,317)
    Norway ($6,187)
    ...

    I wonder how they count that. Is that just what individual
    citizens pay for their own healthcare, or does that also
    account for what the government pays in countries where
    healhcare is socialized?

    As far as I know, it's the total spent on healthcare in the
    country divided by the number of citizens.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    Synchronet Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Dumas Walker on Thu Feb 4 08:36:11 2021
    On 2021-02-03 1:56 p.m., Dumas Walker wrote:

    Even if we tell the drug companies they cannot make a profit, and they
    don't turn around and exit the market, someone has to pay to cover the R&D and
    overhead costs. Nothing is free.

    Yes, but that's it's sad is the trend of concentration, theses pharma
    merging is not good for anybody. Limit the numbers of player and the competition that would promote research to give your to your firm an
    edge again the other players.

    In a lots of field I think I'm watching "highlander" where there can be
    only one. Is that capitalism? I don't think so we call it like that
    still and believe it hasn't been warped.

    I've checked some definition and i see generally this :

    "an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of
    capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision,
    and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are
    determined mainly by competition in a free market"

    Competition seem to be more and more overrated. And it's harder and
    harder for small player to enter the game. Look more like an Oligarchy
    of rich and powerful player running the game and rules.

    ---
    Synchronet MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Dr. What on Thu Feb 4 03:57:56 2021
    On 1/29/2021 6:56 AM, Dr. What wrote:
    Going back to the Scandavian countries: many of them are
    trying to reduce or eliminate the government programs and
    convert them to private.

    They should consult with Greece to see what happens when a
    government tries to ween the citizens off of the teet.

    Oh, ya. They admit it's hard and it will take a LONG time.

    Just think what it would take to eliminate Social Security
    here in the U.S. and replace it with private saving's plans.

    Long term, replacing Social Security will be necessary, and
    it's largely too late as it is... Should have a reduction
    schedule over the course of say 3-4 decades that require
    participation in a certified, fiduciary based retirement
    program, and offsetting participation/taxation against Social
    Security. It will cost more for about 30-40 years, but
    could then normalize again.

    Unfortunately, nobody in a position to actually propose said
    changes has the backbone to do so, and fewer still would vote
    for it for fear of backlash and misinformation.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Dr. What on Thu Feb 4 04:07:58 2021
    On 1/29/2021 8:13 AM, Dr. What wrote:

    If a company comes up with a drug to cure XXX, that costs money. That
    gets factored in to the price of the drug.

    Not really, the highest expense of drug companies by a massive margine
    is advertising, and even then that has very little to do with pricing,
    which is more driven by market economics in the absence of collective bargaining while also having a monopoly on access.

    Insurance companies have switched from negotiation to taking positions
    in the drug companies. Since they're under a 20% profit margin cap
    under Obamacare, they just let the water rise, so they get 20% of a much larger pool of water (increased prices) for the past decade. Not that
    it was much better before.


    But if other countries only permit the company to sell it for less in
    their countries, the company still needs to make up the cost that they incurred developing it.

    Since the U.S. has no price controls, guess who eats that extra cost?

    They're not covering anything, if they couldn't make money in those
    other countries, they wouldn't be selling. It's purely economically driven.

    What I'd like to see in this country is a reduction of Patents issued, especially extension patents combined with dual sourcing requirements
    for distribution and production as well as a requirement for at least
    50% domestic production both for security measures.

    I'd also like to see insurance companies required to act with fiduciary responsibility on behalf of their customers and negotiate in good faith
    as part of that. Would also like to see federally operated programs (Medicare, Medicaid, VA Medical, Federal Employees/Contractors)
    disbanded and replaced with a non-profit insurance corporation that
    could act as a ballast to the system as a whole, allowing anyone to
    purchase coverage, not just those previously covered under the classes
    in the current system.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    Synchronet Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Ennev on Thu Feb 4 04:11:43 2021
    On 1/29/2021 12:53 PM, Ennev wrote:
    Amount of money spent on health care (private and public) / number of
    people

    Yet it seem to show that in country where it's supposed to be run more efficiently by private company it doesn't get cheaper like it would be initially thought.

    The US is still highly regulated and a very large portion of the
    population is covered by various federal and state level programs, which
    are very inefficient, with some really weird rules regarding billing.

    This is not helped by the fact that many insurance companies stopped negotiating nearly as much on pricing since Obamacare and simply let the
    costs rise, increasing premiums so they make more from a bigger pie,
    since they are capped at 20% margins. They've also taken positions in
    the various drug companies, and even retail channels.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Dumas Walker on Thu Feb 4 04:15:20 2021
    On 1/29/2021 4:48 PM, Dumas Walker wrote:

    Part of the reason it costs more here is that we are footing the bill for other countries to have socialized medicine. Like, we pay extra to cover
    the R&D and effectively subsidize the health care in other countries.

    If we ever socialize ours, there are going to be some countries who are
    going to have to start charging their citizens more (raise their taxes or actually charge them). That gravy train would end.

    That isn't as true as you might think... it's largely economics driven
    and comes down to a lack of collective bargaining against pricing models combined with monopoly on distribution.

    R&D is dwarfed by marketting expenses and even production is often
    higher than the R&D budgets.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Dream Master on Thu Feb 4 04:17:15 2021
    On 1/29/2021 10:05 PM, Dream Master wrote:

    Like everything else in American politics, if someone in power
    says it, it must be true. Obama was born in Hawaii, McCain
    born on a US base, and Cruz was born in Canada. Who cares.
    I think the "natural born Citizen" clause of the Constitution
    is flawed. If you've lived here since childhood and are an
    American citizen (naturalized), that's good enough for me.

    The natural born part is to reduce the potential for foreign
    conflicts of interrest and interference.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Ennev on Thu Feb 4 09:21:00 2021
    Ennev wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I thought that was the main reason the UK wanted out of the EU.

    It was, and I surprised that others member of the union are OK with
    that (directives from above).

    Well, I was surprised (at first) at the number of people here in the U.S.
    who are OK with the gov't having no accountability.

    But this has been planned for generations now. The dumbing down of the schools, which produces people who can't think for themselves. We have
    too many people who are, mentally, children and feel a *need* to be
    dependant on someone.

    "Just give up some of your rights and give us more power and we'll
    keep you safe." is what they are told. But they forget the rights
    they've already given up for safety and never gotten any safety - only
    more tyranny.


    ... I may be wrong, but I'm never in doubt!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Dumas Walker on Thu Feb 4 09:27:00 2021
    Dumas Walker wrote to DR. WHAT <=-

    The company who makes the medicine has a choice:
    1. Don't sell it in that country.
    2. Sell it for $2/pill in that country, but sell it for $8/pill in countries without price controls.

    If the US ever goes to price controls or socializes, no one else will
    be able to afford the $2/pill any more.

    The pill won't ever be created because:
    1. The company will not be able to recoup the cost of creating it.
    2. The gov't, who controls everything, won't allow it to be created
    because it will cause one of their cronies to lose money
    or
    3. The bureaucrats won't be able to do it. Because they are incompetant.

    Not many people remember that governments tried to create the airplane
    before the Wright Brothers and all their efforts failed. No one spends
    someone else's money as wisely as their own.


    ... You have only a very small head and must live within it.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Dumas Walker on Thu Feb 4 10:21:00 2021
    Dumas Walker wrote to DREAM MASTER <=-

    Even if we tell the drug companies they cannot make a profit, and they don't turn around and exit the market, someone has to pay to cover the
    R&D and overhead costs. Nothing is free.

    Socialists don't understand economics. If they did, they wouldn't be socialists.


    ... I may be wrong, but I'm never in doubt!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Dr. What on Thu Feb 4 13:35:11 2021
    On 2021-02-04 9:21 a.m., Dr. What wrote:

    "Just give up some of your rights and give us more power and we'll
    keep you safe." is what they are told. But they forget the rights
    they've already given up for safety and never gotten any safety - only
    more tyranny.

    Yeah


    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little
    temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

    Benjamin Franklin

    ---
    Synchronet MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Tracker1 on Thu Feb 4 12:59:43 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they say
    By: Tracker1 to Dr. What on Thu Feb 04 2021 03:57 am


    Just think what it would take to eliminate Social Security
    here in the U.S. and replace it with private saving's plans.

    Long term, replacing Social Security will be necessary, and
    it's largely too late as it is... Should have a reduction
    schedule over the course of say 3-4 decades that require
    participation in a certified, fiduciary based retirement
    program, and offsetting participation/taxation against Social
    Security. It will cost more for about 30-40 years, but
    could then normalize again.

    they love dipping into that money.
    i would have been better off with it going into a private account or something like a 401k. i could probably retire right now, in fact.
    ---
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  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Tracker1 on Thu Feb 4 11:59:54 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they say
    By: Tracker1 to Dr. What on Thu Feb 04 2021 03:57 am

    Long term, replacing Social Security will be necessary, and
    it's largely too late as it is... Should have a reduction
    schedule over the course of say 3-4 decades that require
    participation in a certified, fiduciary based retirement
    program, and offsetting participation/taxation against Social
    Security. It will cost more for about 30-40 years, but
    could then normalize again.

    Absolutely not.

    Replacing Social Security with a system that allows individuals to control its investment is insane. The current system where the government places Social Security in a "trust" that earns approximately 3.6% (in 2014), is insufficient based upon how the government currently borrows from the trust. Placing Social Security funds into something akin to the market, but giving zero control to participants, would demonstrate our governments desire to watch American industry grow at the same time as giving its citizens the impetus to work hard for a good retirement.

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
    Synchronet Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com
  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Tracker1 on Thu Feb 4 12:05:29 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Tracker1 to Dream Master on Thu Feb 04 2021 04:17 am

    The natural born part is to reduce the potential for foreign
    conflicts of interrest and interference.

    So, my father, who immigrated to the US in the late 40s as Stateless is less of an American than you or I? He is a citizen of the United States, has held TS and TS/C level clearances, yet can't be president because of the natural born clause? He has zero foreign conflicts of interest or interference. But, since I was born in the United States, I can become president. I have zero history as an American. Hell, when someone asks me my heritage, I respond, "Euro-Trash".

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
    Synchronet Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to TRACKER1 on Thu Feb 4 15:00:00 2021
    R&D is dwarfed by marketting expenses and even production is often
    higher than the R&D budgets.

    I can see where the marketing budgets could play a role for sure. A lot of these supposed miracle drugs do a lot of advertising. Of course, we'd
    never know how likely we are to die from taking them if it weren't for the catchy ads! :)


    * SLMR 2.1a * Optimist: A Yugo owner with a trailer hitch!

    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DR. WHAT on Thu Feb 4 15:02:00 2021
    Even if we tell the drug companies they cannot make a profit, and they don't turn around and exit the market, someone has to pay to cover the R&D and overhead costs. Nothing is free.

    Socialists don't understand economics. If they did, they wouldn't be socialists.

    I cannot disagree with that at all. :)


    * SLMR 2.1a * Engineers: often wrong, seldom in doubt.

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DR. WHAT on Thu Feb 4 15:21:00 2021
    But this has been planned for generations now. The dumbing down of the schools, which produces people who can't think for themselves. We have
    too many people who are, mentally, children and feel a *need* to be
    dependant on someone.

    I think some of it was planned when the Iron Curtain was still up. It fell
    but the people in this country who had bought into the cause continued what they had started.


    * SLMR 2.1a * No viruses detected. Must be a pair of Nanites.

    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dream Master on Thu Feb 4 20:38:38 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they say
    By: Dream Master to Tracker1 on Thu Feb 04 2021 11:59 am

    schedule over the course of say 3-4 decades that require
    participation in a certified, fiduciary based retirement
    program, and offsetting participation/taxation against Social
    Security. It will cost more for about 30-40 years, but
    could then normalize again.

    Absolutely not.

    Replacing Social Security with a system that allows individuals to control its investment is insane.

    tell that to my huge 401k.



    The current system where the government places
    Social Security in a "trust" that earns approximately 3.6% (in 2014), is

    the current system is dogshit.

    it's like the bank account my mom set up for me for when i turned 18. she put money in it every week [she said]. but she was a single mom and liked to party so she dipped into it all the time. she would always count on winfalls to put a little bit more back in later to replace what she took. that never happened.


    so when i withdrew that account it had like 180 bucks in it. wasnt enough for college.

    anybody that trusts the government to manage their money is a fucking idiot. they take and take and take and it's never enough.

    i'd have a ton saved up if i had a personal account that i could invest. any fool could see the benefit to that.
    ---
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Thu Feb 4 21:07:00 2021
    Dream Master wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    Long term, replacing Social Security will be necessary, and
    it's largely too late as it is... Should have a reduction
    schedule over the course of say 3-4 decades that require
    participation in a certified, fiduciary based retirement
    program, and offsetting participation/taxation against Social
    Security. It will cost more for about 30-40 years, but
    could then normalize again.

    Absolutely not.

    Replacing Social Security with a system that allows individuals
    to control its investment is insane. The current system where
    the government places Social Security in a "trust" that earns approximately 3.6% (in 2014), is insufficient based upon how the government currently borrows from the trust. Placing Social
    Security funds into something akin to the market, but giving zero
    control to participants, would demonstrate our governments desire
    to watch American industry grow at the same time as giving its
    citizens the impetus to work hard for a good retirement.

    Spoken like a good little koolaid-slurping party-line (toe-the-line)
    Dimocrat.

    Sure, give the government complete control over everything, with "zero
    control to participants" (your words) would be a great idea..... <NOT>
    What could go wrong?

    The correct solution is to not allow the fucking government to fucking
    borrow from the "trust" at all, under any circumstance. Like it was meant
    to be done. Like the law requires. It's not the government's money.

    Why don't you just admit that you're a freaking communist?



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Thu Feb 4 21:11:00 2021
    Dream Master wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    The natural born part is to reduce the potential for foreign
    conflicts of interrest and interference.

    So, my father, who immigrated to the US in the late 40s as
    Stateless is less of an American than you or I? He is a citizen
    of the United States, has held TS and TS/C level clearances, yet
    can't be president because of the natural born clause? He has
    zero foreign conflicts of interest or interference. But, since I
    was born in the United States, I can become president. I have
    zero history as an American. Hell, when someone asks me my
    heritage, I respond, "Euro-Trash".

    He's not "less of an American", no. He's just not eligible to become President, by law.

    You don't actually KNOW for certain that he has no foreign conflicts. No offense intended by that statement, but it's true.


    ... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
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  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Gamgee on Fri Feb 5 08:10:31 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they say
    By: Gamgee to Dream Master on Thu Feb 04 2021 09:07 pm

    Why don't you just admit that you're a freaking communist?

    I believe everyone is entitled to living a good life where healthcare, retirement, education, and basic income are part of living in America. You can sit there thinking that it's communism, it's not. We have more than enough money to bail out large corporations, send money to foreign countries, and ensure the rich keep getting richer, but the little guys, we never care about them.

    So, does this make me a communist in your eyes? Sure, why not.

    I pay more than enough in taxes every year.

    I pay more than enough in healthcare costs every year.

    Do me a favor, when you retire, don't accept your Social Security funds or Medicare benefits. If you lose your job, don't take unemployment. If you or a member of your family go to school, don't take any federal subsidized student loans. Oh, and the roads, stop driving on them. Your water, you should probably stop drinking it. God forbid, SOCIALISM! Scary.

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
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  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Gamgee on Fri Feb 5 08:16:40 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Gamgee to Dream Master on Thu Feb 04 2021 09:11 pm

    He's not "less of an American", no. He's just not eligible to become President, by law.

    Oh, by law, I completely agree.

    You don't actually KNOW for certain that he has no foreign conflicts. No offense intended by that statement, but it's true.

    He doesn't. He is truly Stateless.

    But, you're right, you never truly know.

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
    Synchronet Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Fri Feb 5 10:44:39 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they say
    By: Dream Master to Gamgee on Fri Feb 05 2021 08:10 am

    Do me a favor, when you retire, don't accept your Social Security funds or Medicare benefits. If you lose your job, don't take unemployment. If you o member of your family go to school, don't take any federal subsidized studen loans. Oh, and the roads, stop driving on them. Your water, you should probably stop drinking it. God forbid, SOCIALISM! Scary.

    That argument would work better if you gave him the possibility of stopping paying for all those things before refusing to use them.

    --
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Fri Feb 5 17:09:00 2021
    anybody that trusts the government to manage their money is a fucking idiot. ey take and take and take and it's never enough.

    No sh1t. Our state had one of the best retirement systems in the nation.
    One governor decided to dip his hands in it during his last year in office
    and set a precident. Within 5 years, we went from one of the best (so good
    the UAW was trying to unionize office workers to get their hands on it) to being "better than Illinois" which means deep in the doo for those who are
    not familiar with what they tried to do to theirs a few short years back.


    * SLMR 2.1a * We're lost, yes.....but we're making good time.

    ---
    Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DREAM MASTER on Fri Feb 5 17:24:00 2021
    Why don't you just admit that you're a freaking communist?

    I believe everyone is entitled to living a good life where healthcare, retirem
    t, education, and basic income are part of living in America. You can sit the
    thinking that it's communism, it's not. We have more than enough money to ba
    out large corporations, send money to foreign countries, and ensure the rich ep getting richer, but the little guys, we never care about them.

    The US government spends more on health care, per person, than any other country.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Limit Congress to 2 terms: one in office, one in jail!

    ---
    Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DREAM MASTER on Fri Feb 5 17:25:00 2021
    You don't actually KNOW for certain that he has no foreign conflicts. No offense intended by that statement, but it's true.

    He doesn't. He is truly Stateless.

    If he is Stateless, then he not an American and shouldn't be President.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Windows isn't crippleware: it's "Functionally Challenged"

    ---
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Fri Feb 5 20:59:00 2021
    Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Why don't you just admit that you're a freaking communist?

    I believe everyone is entitled to living a good life where
    healthcare, retirement, education, and basic income are part of
    living in America. You can sit there thinking that it's
    communism, it's not.

    Sure it is. None of those items above are anything that anybody is
    "entitled" to. That's where you commies (Democrats) get it wrong. They
    are things to strive for, to work hard for, to plan for, and to hopefully achieve. They're not promised or guaranteed, and that's how it should be.

    We have more than enough money to bail out
    large corporations, send money to foreign countries, and ensure
    the rich keep getting richer, but the little guys, we never care
    about them.

    You describe the Democrat party quite well. Especially the part about
    sending money overseas, and wasting it on freeloaders/abusers.

    So, does this make me a communist in your eyes? Sure, why not.

    Not just in "my eyes". Just a simple fact.

    I pay more than enough in taxes every year.
    I pay more than enough in healthcare costs every year.

    So do I. So does everybody. What's your point here? That we're
    squandering our tax revenue? I do agree with that.

    Do me a favor, when you retire, don't accept your Social Security
    funds or Medicare benefits. If you lose your job, don't take unemployment. If you or a member of your family go to school,
    don't take any federal subsidized student loans. Oh, and the
    roads, stop driving on them. Your water, you should probably
    stop drinking it. God forbid, SOCIALISM! Scary.

    Not the same thing. I would figure that a communist would know that. Besides, I've been PAYING for all of those things for decades, why
    shouldn't I be able to use them.

    What you prefer, as a communist, is that *OTHERS* pay for moochers and dirtbags. Everyone should be EQUALLY poor, right? Meanwhile the elite
    ruling class lives high on the hog. That's what you want?



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Dumas Walker on Fri Feb 5 20:04:19 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Dumas Walker to DREAM MASTER on Fri Feb 05 2021 05:25 pm

    He doesn't. He is truly Stateless.

    If he is Stateless, then he not an American and shouldn't be President.

    My father and his family could not declare they were from Switzerland or Germany as they had no papers to back the claim. Switzerland, because of the German occupation, refused to provide them amy formal validation of their nationality. Germany refused to give them any declaration of their nationality on their exit from Switzerland. Therefore, they were "stateless".

    My father is an American. He served in the USAF and is a Naturalized citizen.

    Dream Master
    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS


    ---
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  • From Denn@VERT/OUTWEST to Dream Master on Fri Feb 5 21:39:53 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they say
    By: Dream Master to Gamgee on Fri Feb 05 2021 08:10 am

    Medicare benefits. If you lose your job, don't take unemployment. If you or a member of your family go to school, don't take any federal subsidized student loans. Oh, and the roads, stop driving on them. Your water, you should probably stop drinking it. God forbid, SOCIALISM! Scary.

    Socialism and communism are scary, they take away what made America great (Competition) and makes the Leftist eliteist's richer and richer while greatly reducing the middle class.

    Democrats create Social programs that raise taxes on the middle class.
    Your logic dosen't work in the real world.

    ---
    Synchronet outwestbbs.com - the Outwest BBS
  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Gamgee on Sat Feb 6 00:46:19 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they say
    By: Gamgee to Dream Master on Fri Feb 05 2021 08:59 pm

    I believe everyone is entitled to living a good life where
    healthcare, retirement, education, and basic income are part of
    living in America. You can sit there thinking that it's
    communism, it's not.

    Sure it is. None of those items above are anything that anybody is "entitled" to. That's where you commies (Democrats) get it wrong. They are things to strive for, to work hard for, to plan for, and to hopefully achieve. They're not promised or guaranteed, and that's how it should be.

    Why should I work for healthcare? What happens if I become unemployed and need healthcare or one of my children? Just wither away and die? That's the position you are taking. Healthcare should be a right, not something we should pay through the roof for to hope they'll pay the bills. This isn't a communist or socialist thing, this is a "living" thing. People should go into debt to stay healthy.

    Strive, work hard, plan, hopefully achieve? Wow, how do you live with yourself? Life shouldn't be about paying medical bills after medical bills and insurance and more and more just to get to Point C.

    We have more than enough money to bail out
    large corporations, send money to foreign countries, and ensure
    the rich keep getting richer, but the little guys, we never care
    about them.

    You describe the Democrat party quite well. Especially the part about sending money overseas, and wasting it on freeloaders/abusers.

    Israel? Afghanistan? We keep sending more money overseas. It doesn't matter which party, they both do the same.

    So, does this make me a communist in your eyes? Sure, why not.

    Not just in "my eyes". Just a simple fact.

    I'm hoping you learn more about the differences between Democratic Socialism, Socialism, Communism, and fascism.

    I pay more than enough in taxes every year.
    I pay more than enough in healthcare costs every year.

    So do I. So does everybody. What's your point here? That we're squandering our tax revenue? I do agree with that.

    Do me a favor, when you retire, don't accept your Social Security
    funds or Medicare benefits. If you lose your job, don't take
    unemployment. If you or a member of your family go to school,
    don't take any federal subsidized student loans. Oh, and the
    roads, stop driving on them. Your water, you should probably
    stop drinking it. God forbid, SOCIALISM! Scary.

    Not the same thing. I would figure that a communist would know that. Besides, I've been PAYING for all of those things for decades, why shouldn't I be able to use them.

    So, stop paying your taxes. Stop using everything the government secures for you going forward.

    What you prefer, as a communist, is that *OTHERS* pay for moochers and dirtbags. Everyone should be EQUALLY poor, right? Meanwhile the elite ruling class lives high on the hog. That's what you want?

    Who cares? The entire Bible Belt and South is some of the poorest states in the country--and they all vote Republican. How can we fix this? Stop calling people moochers and dirtbags and treat people equally.

    Oh, well, you'll never get it.
    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
    Synchronet Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com
  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Denn on Sat Feb 6 01:49:00 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they say
    By: Denn to Dream Master on Fri Feb 05 2021 09:39 pm

    Democrats create Social programs that raise taxes on the middle class.

    I'm more than willing to spend a little more in taxes to ensure my neighbors can live.
    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
    Synchronet Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Sat Feb 6 04:20:10 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they say
    By: Dream Master to Gamgee on Sat Feb 06 2021 12:46 am

    Not the same thing. I would figure that a communist would know that. Besides, I've been PAYING for all of those things
    decades, why shouldn't I be able to use them.

    So, stop paying your taxes. Stop using everything the government secures for you going forward.

    If he stops paying taxes he gets raped in prison and shunned by society.

    If he votes for a candidate that will allow him not to pay those taxes a mob will show up and break havoc because opting out of
    the system is not socially acceptable.

    In fact you kinda did when you brought up that people is entitled to the work of other people (aka I have the right to health
    care regardless of whether I contribute to sustaining it or not). You criticised his position because you think it is socially
    unaceptable.

    No matter how you paint it, taxes are the way a powerful group extracts money from people, by giving those people the illusion
    they have a say in the matter.

    --
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Sat Feb 6 08:37:00 2021
    Dream Master wrote to Denn <=-

    Democrats create Social programs that raise taxes on the middle class.

    I'm more than willing to spend a little more in taxes to ensure
    my neighbors can live.

    Yeah, that's much better than making the neighbors pull their own weight.

    Better than providing JOBS for them, rather than providing them a handout which enslaves them to their "masters". Oh, but wait.... that wouldn't guarantee that they would vote for you, which is the whole point of
    keeping them under your heel. Yeah. The Democrat party way.



    ... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Sat Feb 6 09:15:00 2021
    Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-

    I believe everyone is entitled to living a good life where
    healthcare, retirement, education, and basic income are part of
    living in America. You can sit there thinking that it's
    communism, it's not.

    Sure it is. None of those items above are anything that anybody is "entitled" to. That's where you commies (Democrats) get it wrong. They
    are things to strive for, to work hard for, to plan for, and to hopefully achieve. They're not promised or guaranteed, and that's how it should be.

    Why should I work for healthcare?

    Because it's something you want, or need. Just like everything else.
    Food, housing, a new car, a college education, toys/hobbies, EVERYTHING. That's how you get things in this world. You work for them. Duh.

    What happens if I become unemployed and need healthcare or one of my children? Just wither away and die? That's the position you are taking.

    First of all, don't become unemployed. If you do, get another job. There
    are "programs" (such as MedicAid) out there for those who TRULY need the
    help, and those programs are valuable and useful. I support things like
    that. The problem is that they are so blatantly abused that they can't
    serve their actual purpose. The overseers of such programs COULD fix
    those issues, but they choose not to.

    Healthcare should be a right, not something we should pay through
    the roof for to hope they'll pay the bills. This isn't a
    communist or socialist thing, this is a "living" thing. People
    should go into debt to stay healthy.

    It isn't a right. Where do you draw the line? Should food and a house be
    a "right" also? How about a new car every 5 years, courtesy of the
    gub'mint? Sure, let the people who work their assess off pay more taxes
    so those who don't feel like working can have the same things that those
    who do work have. The Democrat way. Enslave them for their votes.

    Strive, work hard, plan, hopefully achieve? Wow, how do you live
    with yourself?

    I live with myself just fine, thanks. Yep, those words are basically the formula for the American Dream, and always have been. I know you
    Democrats have a hard time understanding such things. Keep trying.

    Life shouldn't be about paying medical bills after medical bills and insurance and more and more just to get to Point C.

    So, somebody else, some other taxpayer, should pay your (or my) medical
    bills? Why? Why not people be responsible for their own selves? Oh! I
    know why..... it's that word "responsible". Dems don't like that.

    So, does this make me a communist in your eyes? Sure, why not.

    Not just in "my eyes". Just a simple fact.

    I'm hoping you learn more about the differences between
    Democratic Socialism, Socialism, Communism, and fascism.

    OK, Bernie. I already know the differences.

    I pay more than enough in taxes every year.
    I pay more than enough in healthcare costs every year.

    So do I. So does everybody. What's your point here? That we're
    squandering our tax revenue? I do agree with that.

    Do me a favor, when you retire, don't accept your Social Security
    funds or Medicare benefits. If you lose your job, don't take
    unemployment. If you or a member of your family go to school,
    don't take any federal subsidized student loans. Oh, and the
    roads, stop driving on them. Your water, you should probably
    stop drinking it. God forbid, SOCIALISM! Scary.

    Not the same thing. I would figure that a communist would know that. Besides, I've been PAYING for all of those things for decades, why shouldn't I be able to use them.

    So, stop paying your taxes. Stop using everything the government
    secures for you going forward.

    What a stupid thing to say. Stop paying my taxes? So I can get in legal trouble and become a non-contributing member of society? I don't think
    so.

    What you prefer, as a communist, is that *OTHERS* pay for moochers and dirtbags. Everyone should be EQUALLY poor, right? Meanwhile the elite ruling class lives high on the hog. That's what you want?

    Who cares? The entire Bible Belt and South is some of the
    poorest states in the country--and they all vote Republican. How
    can we fix this? Stop calling people moochers and dirtbags and
    treat people equally.

    I'm all in favor of treating people equally. You hit the nail on the
    head. Let's stop favoring those who CHOOSE to be moochers and dirtbags,
    and make them pull their own weight and "earn their keep". Absolutely. But.... The Democrat party won't allow such things, because they'd lose
    most of their voter base if they didn't provide them handouts. See?

    Oh, well, you'll never get it.

    You keep demonstrating that you don't get it. All you want is to continue
    the "status quo", and keep the Dem voter base enslaved by your handouts,
    so they'll keep voting Dems into office, who will of course continue to provide the handouts. It's a vicious circle, and is the MAIN CAUSE of inequality and poverty in the country today.

    When people are faced with a choice of WORK or GO WITHOUT, with no
    loopholes, guess which one they'll pick? Before you start spouting off
    about those who CAN'T work, yes, there should be programs to support those people. Those programs exist today but are so badly abused that they
    can't do what they should be doing, and are a never-ending hole that we
    the taxpayers have to dump money into. Remove the moochers and things
    would actually work as designed. Again, that doesn't happen because of
    the Democrat party.



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Denn@VERT/OUTWEST to Dream Master on Sat Feb 6 09:29:38 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they say
    By: Dream Master to Denn on Sat Feb 06 2021 01:49 am

    Democrats create Social programs that raise taxes on the middle
    class.

    I'm more than willing to spend a little more in taxes to ensure my neighbors can live. Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master

    That's the point, they can't live with the high tax burdens, and i'm not willing to pay more for people who could work but take welfare and Government programs instead of getting a job.

    ---
    Synchronet outwestbbs.com - the Outwest BBS
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DREAM MASTER on Sat Feb 6 10:37:00 2021
    He doesn't. He is truly Stateless.

    If he is Stateless, then he not an American and shouldn't be President.

    My father is an American. He served in the USAF and is a Naturalized citizen.

    You are the one that said he "is truly Stateless," not me.


    * SLMR 2.1a * A seminar on Time Travel will be held 2 weeks ago....

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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Tracker1 on Sat Feb 6 11:30:00 2021
    Tracker1 wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Just think what it would take to eliminate Social Security
    here in the U.S. and replace it with private saving's plans.

    Long term, replacing Social Security will be necessary, and
    it's largely too late as it is... Should have a reduction
    schedule over the course of say 3-4 decades that require
    participation in a certified, fiduciary based retirement
    program, and offsetting participation/taxation against Social
    Security. It will cost more for about 30-40 years, but
    could then normalize again.

    Unfortunately, nobody in a position to actually propose said
    changes has the backbone to do so, and fewer still would vote
    for it for fear of backlash and misinformation.

    The real reason is the "3-4 decades". Congress-critters don't think in timespans that long. They think in
    terms of 'next election'.


    ... Blessed are the meek, for they make great scapegoats.
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Tracker1 on Sat Feb 6 11:36:00 2021
    Tracker1 wrote to Dr. What <=-

    On 1/29/2021 8:13 AM, Dr. What wrote:

    If a company comes up with a drug to cure XXX, that costs money. That
    gets factored in to the price of the drug.

    Not really,

    Yes, really.

    the highest expense of drug companies by a massive margine is advertising,

    Not even close. Now, that doesn't mean that SOME companies have a huge adversiting budget for SOME drugs.

    But for the most part, it's the creation, testing and certification that costs the most.

    They're not covering anything, if they couldn't make money in those
    other countries, they wouldn't be selling. It's purely economically driven.

    Right. Now, if ALL countries have price controls guess what happens? The drug never gets made.

    But the discussion was why costs are higher here in the U.S.

    What I'd like to see in this country is a reduction of Patents issued,

    Then you will see a drop in innovation and many things just never get created.

    The purpose of Patents and the like is to give an economic incentive to people to create new things.


    ... Do witches use Spell-checkers?
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Dream Master on Sat Feb 6 13:11:00 2021
    Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Why should I work for healthcare?

    Because if you don't, you are stealing it from those of us who work.

    Don't you understand how socialism works? Don't you understand that for the gov't to pay out, they must
    take it from someone else? Socialism is no different than theft and is the most immoral system ever thought of.

    What happens if I become unemployed and need healthcare or one of my
    children?

    Not our problem. Those of us who work have no obligation to help those of you who won't work.
    We may do so out of the goodness of our hearts, but we have no OBLIGATION to do it.


    ... Public Restroom-The only place a flush beats a full house
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Dream Master on Sat Feb 6 13:12:00 2021
    Dream Master wrote to Denn <=-

    Democrats create Social programs that raise taxes on the middle class.

    I'm more than willing to spend a little more in taxes to ensure my neighbors can live.

    If you think it a "little more" then you are incredibly naive.

    In Scandanavian "Socialism", it's 50% of your income.


    ... Canadian DOS prompt: EH?\>
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Dream Master on Sat Feb 6 13:43:00 2021
    Dream Master wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    Replacing Social Security with a system that allows individuals to
    control its investment is insane.

    Only to a socialist. Oh, wait, I forgot who I was replying to.

    I was just listening to Dave Ramesy yesterday about when to take retirement.

    Without going into all the details, the recommendation is this:
    1. Take Social Security at 62 - and take the lower monthly check.
    2. Keep working.
    3. Put the Social Security check into an investment account.
    4. Retire later (like 68).

    The amount of money you get from the investment account will ALWAYS be more than enough to
    cover the difference in your Social Security check than if you had waited until 68 to start
    collecting.

    Tell me again how the gov't does everything so much better...

    The current system where the
    government places Social Security in a "trust" that earns approximately 3.6% (in 2014)

    How naive! That is total BS. Do you know anything about how Social Security works? Those of us
    who are working today are paying for the benefits of the people currently on Social Security. There is
    no "trust".

    Placing Social Security funds into something
    akin to the market, but giving zero control to participants, would demonstrate our governments desire to watch American industry grow at
    the same time as giving its citizens the impetus to work hard for a
    good retirement.

    You should take your comedy show on the road. The gov't has no such desire and hasn't for a long time.
    The swamp creatures in our gov't only want returns for themselves and their buddies - not for the
    "common man".


    ... "DOS=HIGH" Hmm, I knew it was on something...
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dumas Walker on Sat Feb 6 14:09:42 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Dumas Walker to DREAM MASTER on Sat Feb 06 2021 10:37 am

    He doesn't. He is truly Stateless.

    If he is Stateless, then he not an American and shouldn't be President.

    My father is an American. He served in the USAF and is a Naturalized citizen.

    You are the one that said he "is truly Stateless," not me.


    oh, he was just lying
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Dumas Walker on Sat Feb 6 08:30:00 2021
    Dumas Walker wrote to DREAM MASTER <=-

    The US government spends more on health care, per person, than any
    other country.

    Not just the government. Health care is something like 40% of our GDP.

    My daughter went into the emergency room for GI issues recently, I'm waiting to receive the bill which will most likely be over $7000 for a couple of
    hours of medical care.



    ... Remove ambiguities and convert to specifics
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    Synchronet realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Denn on Sat Feb 6 08:32:00 2021
    Denn wrote to Dream Master <=-

    Socialism and communism are scary, they take away what made America
    great (Competition) and makes the Leftist eliteist's richer and richer while greatly reducing the middle class.

    Compared to the recent bouts of crony capitalism? There hasn't been free market capitalism in years. Campaign contributions, lobbying and monopoly enterprise is where it's at now.

    Democrats create Social programs that raise taxes on the middle class. Your logic dosen't work in the real world.

    Look at the Trump tax plan - tax cuts for the rich and now, tax increases on people making under $75K for the next few years.


    ... Remove ambiguities and convert to specifics
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    Synchronet realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Dream Master on Sat Feb 6 08:36:00 2021
    Dream Master wrote to Denn <=-

    Democrats create Social programs that raise taxes on the middle class.

    I'm more than willing to spend a little more in taxes to ensure my neighbors can live.

    Agreed, it makes sense when you think of your community holistically. Makes sense financially when medical/mental health care is treated proactively instead of being treated by an ER visit or a cop with a taser.

    Food-insecure working-poor families with kids? Less nutrition, lower health, fewer economic opportunities and a self-perpetuating circle.




    ... Remove ambiguities and convert to specifics
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    Synchronet realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Feb 6 18:00:12 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they say
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Dream Master on Sat Feb 06 2021 08:36 am

    Food-insecure working-poor families with kids? Less nutrition, lower health, fewer economic opportunities and a self-perpetuating circle.


    i'd like to see one of those. i'm sure mom and dad are sitting at home gettin high and getting govt paychecks.

    i grew up poor but we always had food. my mom was working poor.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Feb 6 18:26:49 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they say
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Dream Master on Sat Feb 06 2021 08:36 am

    Dream Master wrote to Denn <=-

    Democrats create Social programs that raise taxes on the middle class.

    I'm more than willing to spend a little more in taxes to ensure my neighbors can live.

    Agreed, it makes sense when you think of your community holistically. Makes sense financially when medical/mental health care is treated proactively instead of being treated by an ER visit or a cop with a taser.

    Food-insecure working-poor families with kids? Less nutrition, lower health, fewer economic opportunities and a self-perpetuating circle.




    ... Remove ambiguities and convert to specifics

    The problem with plans issued by the administration is that there is no way of opting out of them.

    There are religious organizations in my area running drug prevention campaigns and rehab campaigns for addicts with different degrees of success. Whether you join or throw money in is up to you.

    When the administration throws an anti-drug campaign there is no way to get out of the plan if you think it is bonkers or uneffective. The dollar get siphoned out of you regardless of how good the thing works.

    I despise the idea that if you oppose tax funded plans it must mean you don't care for the community. Lots of anti-tax anti-gov people I know have been spending more than what their taxes are supposed to be helping locally. Specifically because tax funded plans are not fucking arriving to a lot of people who was promised them.

    Everytime the conversation of socialism vs everything else pops out and somebody argues "Would you not be willing to pay a bit more taxes in order to ensure this or that service is available to the poor?" my standard answer is that you may pay "a bit more" but that does not mean the money is put to got use. And not playing that game does not mean you lack empathy. Maybe you don't jump in because you don't think it is gonna work as advertised?

    If anything, what lacks empathy is to imply that if somebody does not back a government plan, it means he is a nihilistic motherfucker. Which is what is being heavily implied around here.


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Dr. What on Sun Feb 7 09:59:00 2021
    Hello Dr. What!

    ** On Saturday 06.02.21 - 13:43, Dr. What wrote to Dream Master:

    I was just listening to Dave Ramesy yesterday about when to take retirement.

    Without going into all the details, the recommendation is this:
    1. Take Social Security at 62 - and take the lower monthly check.
    2. Keep working.
    3. Put the Social Security check into an investment account.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    What kind would guarantee no losses? There are many kinds. Most
    seem to be volatile.

    4. Retire later (like 68).

    The amount of money you get from the investment account
    will ALWAYS be more than enough to cover the difference in
    your Social Security check than if you had waited until 68
    to start collecting.

    Did Ramesy name any specific investment account?

    I know one fellow who turned 65 a couple years ago, but opted to
    take the higher social security check if he would "retire" at
    age 72 (or something like). This is in Canada, so the options
    are probably a little different than on the USA.

    --- OpenXP 5.0.48
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to GAMGEE on Sun Feb 7 10:50:00 2021
    Better than providing JOBS for them, rather than providing them a handout which enslaves them to their "masters". Oh, but wait.... that wouldn't guarantee that they would vote for you, which is the whole point of
    keeping them under your heel. Yeah. The Democrat party way.

    They either don't teach "the ant and the grasshopper" any more, or the
    message is interpreted much differently than I remember it.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Man, that lightning sounds clos~~ NO CARRIER

    ---
    Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Vague@VERT/VAGUEBBS to Dumas Walker on Sun Feb 7 16:34:00 2021
    Dumas Walker wrote to GAMGEE <=-

    Better than providing JOBS for them, rather than providing them a handout which enslaves them to their "masters". Oh, but wait.... that wouldn't guarantee that they would vote for you, which is the whole point of
    keeping them under your heel. Yeah. The Democrat party way.

    They either don't teach "the ant and the grasshopper" any more, or the message is interpreted much differently than I remember it.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Man, that lightning sounds clos~~ NO CARRIER

    ---
    Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

    You guys just make stuff up independently before coming here, or is this your fantasyland brainstorming session?


    ... Your inability to understand something is not a valid argument against it. --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    Synchronet VAGUE BBS - Vague.ddns.net - Telnet/SSH/RLogin
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Dumas Walker on Sun Feb 7 21:01:00 2021
    Dumas Walker wrote to GAMGEE <=-

    Better than providing JOBS for them, rather than providing them a handout which enslaves them to their "masters". Oh, but wait.... that wouldn't guarantee that they would vote for you, which is the whole point of
    keeping them under your heel. Yeah. The Democrat party way.

    They either don't teach "the ant and the grasshopper" any more,
    or the message is interpreted much differently than I remember
    it.

    That's a real Blast from the Past. Yep, I remember reading that. A perfect analogy to what's happening today. The difference is that today such an outlook would be considered "cruel" or "not fair", or be "inequality".

    Nowadays the Dem's goal is to have everybody equally poor and miserable. Except the "ruling class elite", of course.



    ... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Vague on Sun Feb 7 21:13:00 2021
    Vague wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

    Better than providing JOBS for them, rather than providing them a handout which enslaves them to their "masters". Oh, but wait.... that wouldn't guarantee that they would vote for you, which is the whole point of
    keeping them under your heel. Yeah. The Democrat party way.

    They either don't teach "the ant and the grasshopper" any more, or the message is interpreted much differently than I remember it.

    You guys just make stuff up independently before coming here, or
    is this your fantasyland brainstorming session?

    What a strange question. What do you find "made up" in any of the above?



    ... Do you know where you are?
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Ogg on Mon Feb 8 09:12:00 2021
    Ogg wrote to Dr. What <=-

    3. Put the Social Security check into an investment account.

    What kind would guarantee no losses?

    None. But the gov't doesn't guarantee that it will pay out as it promised either. They've reduced Social Security payouts before.

    Remember, the gov't isn't investing your SS money. You pay in, and it goes right back out to pay for current benefits. As the Baby Boomers retire
    that means more people getting a payout as the number of people paying
    in drops.

    Did Ramesy name any specific investment account?

    No. I didn't listen really closely since I'm not looking at that right now.


    ... "Graphic Artist seeks Boss with vision impairment."
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to MRO on Mon Feb 8 15:17:29 2021
    On 2/4/2021 11:59 AM, MRO wrote:
    Long term, replacing Social Security will be necessary,
    and it's largely too late as it is... Should have a
    reduction schedule over the course of say 3-4 decades
    that require participation in a certified, fiduciary
    based retirement program, and offsetting participation/
    taxation against Social Security. It will cost more for
    about 30-40 years, but could then normalize again.

    they love dipping into that money.
    i would have been better off with it going into a private
    account or something like a 401k. i could probably retire
    right now, in fact.

    Most would be better off having 15% of their post-tax income
    going into a Roth-IRA starting at their first job.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    Synchronet Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Dream Master on Mon Feb 8 15:27:22 2021
    On 2/4/2021 11:59 AM, Dream Master wrote:
    Long term, replacing Social Security will be necessary, and
    it's largely too late as it is... Should have a reduction
    schedule over the course of say 3-4 decades that require
    participation in a certified, fiduciary based retirement
    program, and offsetting participation/taxation against Social
    Security. It will cost more for about 30-40 years, but
    could then normalize again.

    Absolutely not.

    Replacing Social Security with a system that allows individuals
    to control its investment is insane. The current system where
    the government places Social Security in a "trust" that earns
    approximately 3.6% (in 2014), is insufficient based upon how
    the government currently borrows from the trust. Placing Social
    Security funds into something akin to the market, but giving
    zero control to participants, would demonstrate our governments
    desire to watch American industry grow at the same time as
    giving its citizens the impetus to work hard for a good retirement.

    Except that the system is bankrupt, failing and cannot cover those that
    live over 10 years into Social Security, even if the govt didn't dip
    into it. The government cannot be trusted not to dip into said funds.
    It's better placed under more direct control over those that it should benefit. It could be withdrawn/matched under the current structures
    used for Social Security currently and be required, and still work
    better than it does.

    Social Security requires a larger population each generation, which
    works against reducing human impact on the environment.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    Synchronet Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Dream Master on Mon Feb 8 15:30:01 2021
    On 2/4/2021 12:05 PM, Dream Master wrote:
    The natural born part is to reduce the potential for foreign
    conflicts of interrest and interference.

    So, my father, who immigrated to the US in the late 40s as
    Stateless is less of an American than you or I?

    In terms of the ability to hold the office of the president, yes.


    He is a citizen of the United States, has held TS and TS/C
    level clearances, yet can't be president because of the
    natural born clause?

    If you want to change it, get started on an ammendment to do so.


    He has zero foreign conflicts of interest or interference.
    But, since I was born in the United States, I can become
    president. I have zero history as an American. Hell, when
    someone asks me my heritage, I respond, "Euro-Trash".

    That's simply how it is. And given there's no lack of qualified
    candidates for the office, it's not really an issue in any case.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    Synchronet Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Dr. What on Mon Feb 8 15:40:46 2021
    On 2/6/2021 9:36 AM, Dr. What wrote:
    Tracker1 wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Tr> On 1/29/2021 8:13 AM, Dr. What wrote:
    >
    > If a company comes up with a drug to cure XXX, that costs money. That
    > gets factored in to the price of the drug.

    Tr> Not really,

    Yes, really.

    Tr> the highest expense of drug companies by a massive margine is advertising,

    Not even close. Now, that doesn't mean that SOME companies have a huge adversiting budget for SOME drugs.

    But for the most part, it's the creation, testing and certification that costs
    the most.

    https://s21.q4cdn.com/317678438/files/doc_financials/2020/q4/Q4-2020-PFE-Earnings-Release.pdf

    Cost of sales ~40%, R&D 22%.

    They're not covering anything, if they couldn't make money in those
    other countries, they wouldn't be selling. It's purely economically
    driven.

    Right. Now, if ALL countries have price controls guess what happens?
    The drug never gets made.

    I'm not suggesting price controls, only constraints that ensure some
    level of licensure and competition.

    But the discussion was why costs are higher here in the U.S.

    What I'd like to see in this country is a reduction of Patents issued,

    Then you will see a drop in innovation and many things just never get created.

    The purpose of Patents and the like is to give an economic incentive to people
    to create new things.

    Oh, you mean like lack of patents on software prevented software from
    being written?
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    Synchronet Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to GAMGEE on Mon Feb 8 14:55:00 2021
    Nowadays the Dem's goal is to have everybody equally poor and miserable. Except the "ruling class elite", of course.

    Exactly. They would rather take the middle class down than raise the poor
    up. Probably because it is easier.


    * SLMR 2.1a * I have a speech impediment ... my foot.

    ---
    Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Vague@VERT/VAGUEBBS to Dumas Walker on Tue Feb 9 00:01:00 2021
    Dumas Walker wrote to GAMGEE <=-

    Nowadays the Dem's goal is to have everybody equally poor and miserable. Except the "ruling class elite", of course.

    As soon as you hear "ruling class elite" you know who you're talking to.

    Exactly. They would rather take the middle class down than raise the
    poor up. Probably because it is easier.

    I though all the "handouts" the Socialist Dems want to give away in their social programs was a problem?

    I just need to know whether I should hate them for not helping all these PEEOPLE who are saying they NEED help, or do I hate them for helping all THESE people who are SAYING they need help?


    ... That's just incredible! As in... it's just not credible.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    Synchronet VAGUE BBS - Vague.ddns.net - Telnet:23/SSH:22/RLogin:513
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dr. What on Mon Feb 8 23:16:57 2021
    Re: when to take retirement.
    By: Dr. What to Ogg on Mon Feb 08 2021 09:12 am

    Ogg wrote to Dr. What <=-

    3. Put the Social Security check into an investment account.

    What kind would guarantee no losses?

    None. But the gov't doesn't guarantee that it will pay out as it promised either. They've reduced Social Security payouts before.

    Remember, the gov't isn't investing your SS money. You pay in, and it goes right back out to pay for current benefits. As the Baby Boomers retire
    that means more people getting a payout as the number of people paying
    in drops.



    well they use that money for random shit. it's their buffer. they dip into the cookie jar whenever they feel like it.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Gamgee on Tue Feb 9 06:34:44 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Gamgee to Dumas Walker on Sun Feb 07 2021 09:01 pm

    Nowadays the Dem's goal is to have everybody equally poor and miserable. Except the "ruling class elite", of course.

    I believe what you are saying is a poor mischaracterization of the Democrat Party goal. Why can't we level the playing field? Why can't we bring up the poor and bring down the rich? Why should multi-millionaires command more authority in this country than that of the lower to middle class? How much money is too much, how little money is too little? Leveling the playing field allows all of us to have a say in our government process, a say in how we live, and a say in how we ensure everyone is protected.

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
    Synchronet Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com
  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Dr. What on Tue Feb 9 06:44:22 2021
    Re: when to take retirement.
    By: Dr. What to Ogg on Mon Feb 08 2021 09:12 am

    Remember, the gov't isn't investing your SS money. You pay in, and it goes right back out to pay for current benefits. As the Baby Boomers retire that means more people getting a payout as the number of people paying
    in drops.

    My oldest son (21) made a statement to me the other day, "I don't think I'll have Social Security when I retire." I looked at him and nodded in agreement. Something must be done to correct Social Security as the current model is heavily flawed. I don't agree with an individualized investment model but something in between would work.

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
    Synchronet Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com
  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Tracker1 on Tue Feb 9 06:56:11 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they say
    By: Tracker1 to Dream Master on Mon Feb 08 2021 03:27 pm

    Except that the system is bankrupt, failing and cannot cover those that live over 10 years into Social Security, even if the govt didn't dip
    into it. The government cannot be trusted not to dip into said funds. It's better placed under more direct control over those that it should benefit. It could be withdrawn/matched under the current structures
    used for Social Security currently and be required, and still work
    better than it does.

    Thinking about this, you're definitely convincing me. Social Security will become insolvent over the next ten years and that will be bad for a lot of us born in the late 60s and early 70s. I'm going to do some more research on this line of thinking. Thank you.

    Social Security requires a larger population each generation, which
    works against reducing human impact on the environment.

    Agreed. The population growth in America has definitely broke the system that was intended to provide us income in our retirement.

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
    Synchronet Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Dream Master on Tue Feb 9 23:06:00 2021
    Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-

    @MSGID: <60228F74.1178.dove-debate@caughtinadream.com>
    @REPLY: <6020B19F.3933.dove-debate@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Gamgee to Dumas Walker on
    Sun Feb 07 2021 09:01 pm

    Nowadays the Dem's goal is to have everybody equally poor and miserable. Except the "ruling class elite", of course.

    I believe what you are saying is a poor mischaracterization of the Democrat Party goal. Why can't we level the playing field? Why can't
    we bring up the poor and bring down the rich? Why should multi-millionaires command more authority in this country than that of
    the lower to middle class? How much money is too much, how little
    money is too little? Leveling the playing field allows all of us to
    have a say in our government process, a say in how we live, and a say
    in how we ensure everyone is protected.

    We can do that. It's just the Dems aren't. They are putting Big Tech in power, the captain of industry, the (powerful) identity politics groups. They demonise the working Trump voters and call them terrorists.

    Their party goal is clearly, judging from their actions, the maintenance of a liberal world order and the reign of a elite consisting of those already rich and powerful.

    When I judge a political party, I don't look at what they put on the label, but rather the contents of the bottle, which is usually something completely different.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Dream Master on Tue Feb 9 23:21:00 2021
    Dream Master wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    @MSGID: <6022947B.1184.dove-debate@caughtinadream.com>
    @REPLY: <6021BACB.4826.dove-debate@roughneckbbs.com>
    Re: Re: move to Canada they say
    By: Tracker1 to Dream Master on
    Mon Feb 08 2021 03:27 pm

    Except that the system is bankrupt, failing and cannot cover those that live over 10 years into Social Security, even if the govt didn't dip
    into it. The government cannot be trusted not to dip into said funds.
    It's better placed under more direct control over those that it should benefit. It could be withdrawn/matched under the current structures
    used for Social Security currently and be required, and still work
    better than it does.

    Thinking about this, you're definitely convincing me. Social Security will become insolvent over the next ten years and that will be bad for
    a lot of us born in the late 60s and early 70s. I'm going to do some
    more research on this line of thinking. Thank you.

    Social Security requires a larger population each generation, which
    works against reducing human impact on the environment.

    Agreed. The population growth in America has definitely broke the
    system that was intended to provide us income in our retirement.


    But consider this, even though the proportion of the population which needs support due to old age is higher, aren't we far more productive thanks to technology?


    If resources were better distributed, this wouldn't be as much of a problem. In Australia, housing is ridiculously expensive, so people can't really afford to pay higher taxes because they are mortgaged to the hilt. Speculators hoard the wealth and the government scratches it head, imports people to boost the population then finds that population growth necessitates spending on infrastructure. Also, importing working age people makes the demographic problem worse, as these new additions are closer to retirement than native born, and also often bring in their parents and family.

    The problem goes deeper than merely social securty, it is the very fundamental basis of our economic system which is flawed, in particular, our refusal to point the finger at wealth hoarders, specuvestors, and pretending the problem lies all elsewhere.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Vague@VERT/VAGUEBBS to Boraxman on Wed Feb 10 01:29:00 2021
    Boraxman wrote to Dream Master <=-

    Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-

    @MSGID: <60228F74.1178.dove-debate@caughtinadream.com>
    @REPLY: <6020B19F.3933.dove-debate@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Gamgee to Dumas Walker on
    Sun Feb 07 2021 09:01 pm

    Nowadays the Dem's goal is to have everybody equally poor and miserable. Except the "ruling class elite", of course.

    I believe what you are saying is a poor mischaracterization of the Democrat Party goal. Why can't we level the playing field? Why can't
    we bring up the poor and bring down the rich? Why should multi-millionaires command more authority in this country than that of
    the lower to middle class? How much money is too much, how little
    money is too little? Leveling the playing field allows all of us to
    have a say in our government process, a say in how we live, and a say
    in how we ensure everyone is protected.

    We can do that. It's just the Dems aren't. They are putting Big Tech
    in power, the captain of industry, the (powerful) identity politics groups. They demonise the working Trump voters and call them
    terrorists.

    Their party goal is clearly, judging from their actions, the
    maintenance of a liberal world order and the reign of a elite
    consisting of those already rich and powerful.

    When I judge a political party, I don't look at what they put on the label, but rather the contents of the bottle, which is usually
    something completely different.


    Problem is, you pretty obviously only see what you want to see.


    ... That's just incredible! As in... it's just not credible.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    Synchronet VAGUE BBS - Vague.ddns.net - Telnet:23/SSH:22/RLogin:513
  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Boraxman on Wed Feb 10 07:35:45 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Boraxman to Dream Master on Tue Feb 09 2021 11:06 pm

    We can do that. It's just the Dems aren't. They are putting Big Tech in power, the captain of industry, the (powerful) identity politics groups. They demonise the working Trump voters and call them terrorists.

    Where is the world going? It isn't going the route of fossil fuels, legacy manufacturing processes, traditional data centers, to name a few. Big Tech, I believe, is a mischaracterisation of modern business practices. Changing the way we do (things, processes, methods) is the only way to advance in the world. Continuing our focus on traditional models is only going to hurt and not help us.


    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
    Synchronet Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Tracker1 on Wed Feb 10 08:48:00 2021
    Tracker1 wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I'm not suggesting price controls, only constraints that ensure some
    level of licensure and competition.

    "Constraints" = "Price controls"

    Oh, you mean like lack of patents on software prevented software from being written?

    Software is covered under copyright.


    ... New religion? I haven't used up the old one, yet!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Dumas Walker on Wed Feb 10 09:55:00 2021
    Dumas Walker wrote to GAMGEE <=-

    Exactly. They would rather take the middle class down than raise the
    poor up. Probably because it is easier.

    Especially for Lefties. They are completely unable to create. They only
    know how to destroy.


    ... Professionals built the Titanic, amateurs built the ark.
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Wed Feb 10 13:16:43 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Dream Master to Boraxman on Wed Feb 10 2021 07:35 am

    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Boraxman to Dream Master on Tue Feb 09 2021 11:06 pm

    We can do that. It's just the Dems aren't. They are putting Big Tech in power, the captain of industry, the (powerful) identity politics groups They demonise the working Trump voters and call them terrorists.

    Where is the world going? It isn't going the route of fossil fuels, legacy manufacturing processes, traditional data centers, to name a few. Big Tech, believe, is a mischaracterisation of modern business practices. Changing th way we do (things, processes, methods) is the only way to advance in the wor Continuing our focus on traditional models is only going to hurt and not hel us.


    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS


    I fail to see how such declaration is related to Boraxman's.

    If you think giving power to Amazon and Facebook while independent stores and websites shrink is the way to go and abbandon fossil fuels, legacy manufacturing processers and traditional data centers, I suspect you are setting yourself up for a hard disappointment.

    --
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dr. What on Wed Feb 10 13:23:54 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Dr. What to Tracker1 on Wed Feb 10 2021 08:48 am

    Oh, you mean like lack of patents on software prevented software from being written?

    Software is covered under copyright.


    Things that are important enough don't get patented. When you patent some industrial property you have to disclose information about it, and you usually don't want to do that if the property in question is really groundbreaking.

    What you do is to develop $thing.

    Then you rent $thing or offer the services of $thing without disclosing how it works (or often, that you even have it).

    This is how many powerful industrial sectors have been operating, including electric power generation. A lot of hardware in certain powerplants is not the property of the powerplant, but it is leased, and nobody but the leaser knows how it works inside.

    With software, we are going to get the same thing. Instead of having an office program in your computer, you will be renting it and running it from some cloud system, and only the service operator will have a copy of the software or know how it works.

    I don't think copyright or patent laws matter *that much* when it comes to industrial applications, but lacking a semblance of them would put more tech development in the underground.


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  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Arelor on Wed Feb 10 20:06:25 2021
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Arelor to Dream Master on Wed Feb 10 2021 01:16 pm

    If you think giving power to Amazon and Facebook while independent stores and websites shrink is the way to go and abbandon fossil fuels, legacy manufacturing processers and traditional data centers, I suspect you are setting yourself up for a hard disappointment.

    Times are changing and we need to move with it. If we keep putting up walls around progress we will be left behind.

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Dream Master on Thu Feb 11 06:11:00 2021
    Dream Master wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6023EF41.1224.dove-debate@caughtinadream.com>
    @REPLY: <60232C2A.20313.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Re: move to Canada they s
    By: Boraxman to Dream Master on
    Tue Feb 09 2021 11:06 pm

    We can do that. It's just the Dems aren't. They are putting Big Tech in power, the captain of industry, the (powerful) identity politics groups. They demonise the working Trump voters and call them terrorists.

    Where is the world going? It isn't going the route of fossil fuels, legacy manufacturing processes, traditional data centers, to name a
    few. Big Tech, I believe, is a mischaracterisation of modern business practices. Changing the way we do (things, processes, methods) is the only way to advance in the world. Continuing our focus on traditional models is only going to hurt and not help us.


    The world will change, but what you can't do is presume to know what that change should be. That is what our "ruling elite" do, they pronounce things like the "Great Reset", say it's just how things are going to be, and we end up being conned into accepting a future of their chosing, not one of ours.

    The problem I have with "Big Tech", or modern business practices, is that people are presuming to know what is right or wrong, what should be done. Business push Social Justice, social change, denounce this or that, but how do they know how this will all end up? They don't. No one actually know what values we need, what should be considered good or bad, right or wrong. We can only do this by trial and error, through making small changes, corrections and evaluations. But what Liberalism does, is it just proclaims things like "The nation state is obsolete" or "the future is a gig economy" but has no idea how this will end up.

    Traditionalism is actually not about stagnation, but in not presuming that individual human beings can unlaterally dictate successfully a new culture, or morals. We learn through trial and error, through experience.

    The alliance I talked about is seeking to limit anyone that questions them, to denouce any other worldviews as "evil", as if somehow they have prognosticated into the future what would happen if we did actually have a populist leader of an establishment one.


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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Arelor on Fri Feb 12 08:44:00 2021
    Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-

    What you do is to develop $thing.

    Then you rent $thing or offer the services of $thing without disclosing how it works (or often, that you even have it).

    This is how many powerful industrial sectors have been operating, including electric power generation. A lot of hardware in certain powerplants is not the property of the powerplant, but it is leased,
    and nobody but the leaser knows how it works inside.

    The risk with that is that if someone on the inside leaks the information,
    you have no legal recourse when another company uses that information
    in their own products. You can go after the leaker, of course, if you can
    find him.

    With software, we are going to get the same thing. Instead of having an office program in your computer, you will be renting it and running it from some cloud system, and only the service operator will have a copy
    of the software or know how it works.

    Software was always an interesting thing in this area.

    I don't think copyright or patent laws matter *that much* when it comes
    to industrial applications, but lacking a semblance of them would put
    more tech development in the underground.

    Right. And that hits on the reason for copyright/patents: If they didn't exist many people simply wouldn't release their inventions - or wouldn't make
    them in the first place.

    With copyright/patents, people can create, release the information, but maintain control of that information for a period of time - for their benefit. But after the time limit is up, the information can be used by anyone
    to build off of - and create something even better.

    One of the problems is that copyright lasts **way** too long (Thanks Disney). But that's another topic.


    ... Honesty pays, but not enough for some.
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    Synchronet Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Arelor on Fri Feb 12 09:51:00 2021
    Arelor wrote to Dream Master <=-

    If you think giving power to Amazon and Facebook while independent
    stores and websites shrink is the way to go and abbandon fossil fuels, legacy manufacturing processers and traditional data centers, I suspect you are setting yourself up for a hard disappointment.

    That's why Lefties are always so angry: Reality refuses to go along with
    their false Narrative.


    ... Life is a game. Money is how we keep score.
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    Synchronet Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Vague@VERT/VAGUEBBS to Dr. What on Sat Feb 13 01:05:00 2021
    Dr. What wrote to Arelor <=-

    @VIA: VERT/DMINE
    @MSGID: <6026ABA7.42968.dove-debate@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <6024311B.4058.dove-debate@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    Arelor wrote to Dream Master <=-

    If you think giving power to Amazon and Facebook while independent
    stores and websites shrink is the way to go and abbandon fossil fuels, legacy manufacturing processers and traditional data centers, I suspect you are setting yourself up for a hard disappointment.

    That's why Lefties are always so angry: Reality refuses to go along
    with their false Narrative.

    "Lefties"... yeah, whoever that is.

    What's the weather like out there on Fantasy Island?


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