• Social Security Going Bro

    From BOB KLAHN@1:123/140 to EARL CROASMUN on Sat Jan 27 15:26:28 2029
    I guess if you ignore the fact that a bipartisan commission
    recommended it, and Congress passed it, and the increases

    doesn't change
    the fact that it put more money into the pot for the government
    to spend.

    To spend on Social Security. You still aren't getting this
    simple fact.

    To spend on other things at that time, with a promise it would
    be there 20 or 30 or 40 years in the future.

    It will make no positive difference at all, and will likely do
    great harm. Too bad it's so far into the future. If it was so
    necessary, so good, why not make it effective immediately? Why
    wait 20 years?


    BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

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  • From BOB KLAHN@1:123/140 to EARL CROASMUN on Thu Jun 14 15:26:28 2029

    ...

    Somehow the idea that moving increases up from 2030 to current
    years doesn't increase government revenue to be spent now is a
    bit absurd.

    Your attempt to twist the facts is what is "absurd." The
    law did not jump the 1984 tax rate up to the 2030 rate. It
    slightly accelerated Carter's tax increases. Specifically,
    the 1985 rate increase got moved up to 1984, the
    already-passed increases for 1985-87 remained the same,
    part of the already-passed 1990 increase got moved up to
    1988, and the already-passed increases from 1990 to 2030
    remained the same.

    IOW, you dispute details you did not give the first time around,
    but you ignore the original point.

    Look at your story. Look at the facts. Do you see the
    vast difference? Anyone else would.

    Do you see where you ever gave a link to your sources? No one
    would.

    So, as far as the increased tax rates, leaving out the
    other provisions of the law, taxpayers paid a little more
    (and the SS trust fund got a little more) in 1984 than
    would have been the case if the changes had not passed. In

    And all of what the trust fund got was available and spent on
    other functions.

    1985, 86, and 87, they payed THE SAME RATE as they would

    The increases were already scheduled to take place.
    Taxpayers paid a little more in 1988 and 89 than they would

    Yet you still don't give your source.

    Is that simple enough for you to understand YET?

    What do you mean "yet"? When you give facts we can argue them.
    Adding them later is your way of spinning the debate. Above all,
    not giving your sources is your way of giving alleged facts that
    are hard to check.

    BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

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  • From BOB KLAHN@1:123/140 to EARL CROASMUN on Sat Jan 24 15:26:28 2032
    An exactly balanced budget would have exactly the effect of
    paying off only mature bonds.

    An "exactly balanced" budget would be able to pay off
    mature bonds by issuing new ones, thus keeping the debt the

    Since paying off maturing bonds are part of the govt fiscal
    policy, no further change than exacly balancing spending and
    revenue is necessary to pay off the debt by the time the current
    bonds all mature.

    Paying off matured bonds without issuing new bonds to
    replace them would require running a surplus, not a
    balance. At an exact balance, the total indebtedness would
    remain the same. Less aggregate indebtedness would mean a
    surplus. All of which has nothing to do with Greenspan's
    point about the disruption that would come from buying
    NON-mature bonds back prematurely.

    As I went into once before, the budget is not what we are really
    talking about, that's just a convenient term. What we are
    talking about is actual spending. Since maturing bonds are paid
    off, whether by tax money or borrowed money, your point is
    lacking accuracy.

    If we pay off the mature bonds out of revenue, then that
    requires balance, not surplus. When we borrow to pay off bonds,
    that gives us a deficit. If we pay off a portion of the mature
    bonds out of revenue, and borrow to pay off a portion, the
    result is a lower deficit. A surplus means we can pay off bonds
    that haven't matured.

    Paying off some mature bonds from revenue rather than borrowing
    reduces the debt at a slower rate that paying them all out of
    revenue, but it does reduce the debt.

    Any way you look at it, to pay off all mature bonds out of
    revenue all you have to do is have a balance between revenue and
    spending. Paying bonds is spending. Borrowing only to pay off
    mature bonds will not increase the debt, if the interest has
    been paid also. Borrowing to pay current expenses does increase
    the debt.

    All of which you argued ignored the original point, in which I
    pointed out that any bond payment plan that incurs more cost for
    paying early than waiting for maturity is illogical. At least
    from the borrower's point of view it's illogical. The lender can
    reasonably expect to charge a bit more for paying early, but not
    more than the total cost of waiting to maturity. That kind of
    penalty would be absurd from the borrower's point of view.


    BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

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  • From Earl Croasmun@1:261/38 to Bob Klahn on Wed Nov 29 15:27:40 2034
    That is why, if one looks up budget data, they don't just
    find "wish list" data. They also find out what actually
    happened. From Obama's 2014 Budget: "Historical Tables,
    Budget of the United States Government, Fiscal Year 2014
    provides data on budget receipts, outlays, surpluses or
    deficits, Federal debt, and Federal employment over an
    extended time period, generally from 1940 or earlier to
    2014 or 2018."

    Yep. The * Historical Tables* report the results.

    You stopped too soon. It reports the actual budget receipts, the actual budget

    outlays, and the actual resulting surplus or deficit. Not just the budget REQUEST.


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  • From Earl Croasmun@1:261/38 to Bob Klahn on Sat Sep 29 15:27:40 2035
    None of this relates, however, to your belief that going
    into debt counts as "income" while paying that debt down or
    off is "spending."

    First, I did not say income, I said revenue. Second, look at the
    records. The trust funds are counted in the revenue columns.

    The revenue that people pay in through the payroll tax IS
    REVENUE! What is it that you still need help with here?

    Perhaps the fact that you used the word "income" above, yet I
    used revenue consistently.

    You persist in your completely absurd belief that going into debt is income and

    that paying off debt is spending. Your first response is to pretend that you do not know what two simple English words MEAN. Your second was to ask an irrelevant question. I answered the irrelevant question. Revenue is "counted"

    as revenue because revenue IS revenue. Yes, your question really WAS that dumb.

    Then explain why the social security trust funds are counted as
    revenue and debt.

    Jeff already did. I already did. That is why your response is so funny.


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  • From Earl Croasmun@1:261/38 to Bob Klahn on Sat Aug 4 15:27:48 2035
    But now you have been taught that the tax increase was only
    a part of that supposed "165 billion." I even explained
    exactly what years saw a tax increase from the 1983 law,
    and what years saw NO increase over the 1977 Carter tax
    increases that were already slated to go into effect. If
    you had just paid attention, you would have learned
    something.

    Now you are playing a word game, pretending a tax increase today
    doesn't count if it was already schedualed for 5 years from now.

    If you had actually read what I said, and if you had even a low level of understanding of the English language, you would realize I said the opposite. Did you not read it, or did you not understand? There is no third option other

    than your complete dishonesty.

    I pointed out to you weeks ago which three years actually saw a tax increase due to the 1983 law. You have yet to show any sign that you read it, let alone

    understood it, let alone being able to honestly admit it.


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