Forgive me if this topic has been covered in the past. I am going to assume it has been, but maybe not for a long time. I see security related topics talked about here and there, but I don't think I've seen one related to this.

We live in a "zero trust" world. As anyone reading this message is probably aware, even with best efforts, BBSs are not very secure at all and messaging over FTNs is very public.

Have any BBSs implemented support for PGP or GPG to allow for end-to-end encryption of messages, locally and over FTNs? I've used it in email for many years (and wish I could influence more people to use it). Its "pretty good protection" from prying eyes snooping your messages. It might make users of a BBS feel "safer" knowing that their Sysop is not reading their messages, or any other Sysop between the origin and destination.

I am mostly curious. The BBS software itself doesnt need to handle this, it could be done by a door/alternative message reader like Opicron's RJAM or something else, which is kind of the beauty of PGP/GPG. It could even be done manually without a "client" at all with a little copy and paste.

---
Ganiman
bbs.madetoraid.com:[2323/2222]

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Made to Raid BBS (21:3/174)

I am mostly curious. The BBS software itself doesnt need to handle this, it could be done by a door/alternative message reader like Opicron's RJAM or something else, which is kind of the beauty of PGP/GPG. It could even be done manually without a "client" at all with a little copy and paste.

There is no standard for this so it hasn't been done (as far as I know).

Mystic does have the ability to encrypt netmail between nodes that have a password setup between them but when a message goes to a link without a password (which netmail likely will) the encryption is lost.

Echomail is not encrypted but it doesn't need to be.

It could work that way if there was a standard and all the software involved understood it and was capable of using it.

There is a plethora of software being used in Fido (and othernets), some of it old and unsupported so that is a challenge, probably a killer.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106)

Forgive me if this topic has been covered in the past. I am going to assume it has been, but maybe not for a long time. I see security related topics talked about here and there, but I don't think I've seen one related to this.

One more thought.. :)

If you want to be sure of privacy you could UUEncode (or similar) and the recipient could UUDecode the message when they get it.

I think it is against the rules in Fidonet to send encrypted mail. Some nodes that accept encrypted mail fly the ENC (or similar) flag. It's not something I would be concerned about myself (as long as the law doesn't get involved). Mail from here gets sent towards it's destination, encrypted or not. There is no rule in fsxNet about mail being encrypted or not.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106)

Re: PGP / GPG end to end encryption on FSNs
By: Ganiman to All on Sat Aug 12 2023 12:40 pm

Howdy,

Have any BBSs implemented support for PGP or GPG to allow for end-to-end encryption of messages, locally and over FTNs? I've used it in email for many years (and wish I could influence more people to use it). Its "pretty good protection" from prying eyes snooping your messages. It might make users of a BBS feel "safer" knowing that their Sysop is not reading their

Something like PGP (for Netmail) would be a useful capability - but like you said, not many use it and there isnt much support for it that I'm aware of.

I've been thinking how I could use PGP for clrghouz - mainly from the point of view of authentication, but I could see using encryption as well.

It would be fairly easy to implement in FTN - since the body of a message is just text. I've made provisions for it, but havent really got much further than that.

If you have any ideas or want to explore it, yell out and I could whip something up in clrghouz.


...ëîåï
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (21:2/116)

Have any BBSs implemented support for PGP or GPG to allow for end-to-end

Here we go again ...

protection" from prying eyes snooping your messages. It might make users of BBS feel "safer" knowing that their Sysop is not reading their messages, or any other Sysop between the origin and destination.

If you've EVER used a BBS, you'd know that email/messages on a BBS are NOT private and can be read by the sysop. Anything on their system is free game, as it is THEIR system. It's a PERSONAL system, not a company.

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)

If you've EVER used a BBS, you'd know that email/messages on a BBS are
NOT private and can be read by the sysop. Anything on their system is free game, as it is THEIR system. It's a PERSONAL system, not a
company.

Private messages seem like a reasonable thing to consider here in 2023. A lot has changed since the 90s. Hell, even passwords on modern BBSes are encrypted, whereas classic softwares stored them in plaintext...something that feels pretty lame these days.

Then you get the sysops that watch your every move while you're on their boards. Don't even get me started. I guess if some sysops start BBSes because they want to eavesdrop and monitor what people do, more power to them. But if I were able to offer private messaging on my BBS in a secure fashion, I'd do it immediately.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

Wait - you guys get callers to even have a discussion if they are to/not to be watched? Lol.

On 17:25 14/08 , esc wrote:

If you've EVER used a BBS, you'd know that email/messages on a BBS are NOT private and can be read by the sysop. Anything on their system is free game, as it is THEIR system. It's a PERSONAL system, not a company.

Private messages seem like a reasonable thing to consider here in 2023. A lot has changed since the 90s. Hell, even passwords on modern BBSes are encrypted, whereas classic softwares stored them in plaintext...something that feels pretty lame these days.

Then you get the sysops that watch your every move while you're on their boards. Don't even get me started. I guess if some sysops start BBSes because they want to eavesdrop and monitor what people do, more power to them. But if I were able to offer private messaging on my BBS in a secure fashion, I'd do it immediately.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

--
yrNews Usenet Reader for iOS
http://appstore.com/yrNewsUsenetReader

--- Mystic BBS/NNTP v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: The ByteXchange BBS | bbs.thebytexchange.com (21:1/107)

Hi Esc,

On Monday August 14 2023, Esc said to Exodus:

Then you get the sysops that watch your every move while you're on their boards. Don't even get me started. I guess if some sysops start BBSes

That was fun when you first got a system online.. But it soon get's boring
and stale....

The only way I know/see if someone is online here is in the list of active lines... IT's just not worth my time to watch what someone is doing....


\/orlon
aka
Stephen

Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

--- Zeus BBS 1.5
* Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)

The only way I know/see if someone is online here is in the list of
active lines... IT's just not worth my time to watch what someone is doing....

My BBS runs on a remote VPS so it would take concerted effort for me to try to eavesdrop on a user. I wonder if I should advertise that "no sysop snooping" thing as a feature on user signups and ads :P I've heard from a number of people that they tend to avoid calling boards where sysops lurk and watch their every move.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

Have any BBSs implemented support for PGP or GPG to allow for end-to-end encryption of messages, locally and over FTNs? I've used it in email for

I used PGP for a few years back in the 90s. It is really useful, but I don't think it should be used on an open system where you don't actually
know every user personally. As the SysOp, I think we are responsible for
what is done on our bulletin boards. What if people were using your
board for nefarious purposes? Political, social, or whatever. What if
people were using your board to communicate plans for illegal actions?
Drug deals? Terrorist activity? Other violent acts? I think we should
be aware of what happens on our boards. It doesn't mean you need to
snoop on every user. If you have a private BBS and you all know each
other, I think PGP would be ok. As long as you all trust each other.

... What do you mean, QWK? It took me over an hour to read!

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Windows/64)
* Origin: The Unmarked Van - 21:1/130 - Mt. Healthy, Ohio (21:1/130)

Re: Re: PGP / GPG end to end encryption on F
By: esc to Vorlon on Tue Aug 15 2023 10:45 pm

number of people that they tend to avoid calling boards where sysops lurk and watch their every move.

Wait how would you know if your BBS is doing that?

candycane

===
user is generated from /dev/urandom

...Respect is a rational process. McCoy, The Galileo Seven, stardate 2822.3. --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)

Re: PGP / GPG end to end encryption on FSNs
By: Al to Ganiman on Sat Aug 12 2023 11:30 am

If you want to be sure of privacy you could UUEncode (or similar) and the recipient could UUDecode the message when they get it.

Others will likely point this out too, but I didn't see any such responses yet:

UUencode is not encryption. It's just a way to encode arbitrary binary data into a subset of ASCII characters that are more universally transferrable. Base64 and yEnce are similar solutions to the same problem - nothing to do with privacy.

Just an FYI. :-)
--
digital man (rob)

Synchronet "Real Fact" #103:
Synchronet added PETSCII (e.g. C64/C128) terminal support in October of 2018 Norco, CA WX: 90.6øF, 41.0% humidity, 2 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)

If you want to be sure of privacy you could UUEncode (or similar) and the
recipient could UUDecode the message when they get it.

Others will likely point this out too, but I didn't see any such responses yet UUencode is not encryption. It's just a way to encode arbitrary binary data into a subset of ASCII characters that are more universally transferrable. Base64 and yEnce are similar solutions to the same problem - nothing to do with privacy.

Yes, it would make it hard but not imposible for others to read. Anyone could UUdecode it.

I don't use these tools so I'm not sure what could work. Maybe PGP?

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106)

Wait how would you know if your BBS is doing that?

If every time you call a certain BBS, the sysop jumps into chat with you. That's a lurker. And it's something I (and many others) try to avoid when calling out :)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

Hi Esc,

On Tuesday August 15 2023, Esc said to Vorlon:

The only way I know/see if someone is online here is in the list of
active lines... IT's just not worth my time to watch what someone is
doing....

My BBS runs on a remote VPS so it would take concerted effort for me to
try to eavesdrop on a user. I wonder if I should advertise that "no

It's not hard when you run mystic.. Just ssh into your vps, and run
nodespy...

But yeah, advertise "No sysop snooping" #-;



\/orlon
aka
Stephen

Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

--- Zeus BBS 1.5
* Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)

On 16 Aug 2023, esc said the following...

Wait how would you know if your BBS is doing that?

If every time you call a certain BBS, the sysop jumps into chat with you. That's a lurker. And it's something I (and many others) try to avoid when calling out :)

"so why'd you decide to call?"

"good question"

lol

i remember i used to have a sysop chat thing that made the bbs beep like crazy and the only "normal" person that used it was my irl friend. rest were nutters who wanted to talk about their own bbs or tell me all about how someone else's board had more daily fights in LORD.. can't imagine what they're like on their own turf.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)

Re: Re: PGP / GPG end to end encryption on F
By: esc to candycane on Wed Aug 16 2023 05:54 pm

If every time you call a certain BBS, the sysop jumps into chat with you. That's a lurker. And it's something I (and many others) try to avoid when calling out :)

Oh, I haven't seen that yet good ^^"

candycane

===
user is generated from /dev/urandom

...Bedfellows make strange politicians.
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)

My BBS runs on a remote VPS so it would take concerted effort for me t try to eavesdrop on a user. I wonder if I should advertise that "no

It's not hard when you run mystic.. Just ssh into your vps, and run nodespy...

I assert sshing into a VPS and waiting around for someone to dial in so I can run nodespy counts as a "concerted effort" - especially when comparing to the.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

It's not hard when you run mystic.. Just ssh into your vps, and run nodespy...

I assert sshing into a VPS and waiting around for someone to dial in so
I can run nodespy counts as a "concerted effort" - especially when comparing to the.

No idea why this was cut off, but it was supposed to be "especially when comparing to the old days when we knew someone connected to our BBS because we heard the phone ring" :P

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

Re: Re: PGP / GPG end to end encryption on F
By: esc to Vorlon on Thu Aug 17 2023 05:01 am

can run nodespy counts as a "concerted effort" - especially when comparing to the.

Comparing to the? The what?

candycane

===
user is generated from /dev/urandom

...Failure has gone to his head.
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)

Re: Re: PGP / GPG end to end encryption on F
By: candycane to esc on Thu Aug 17 2023 08:46 am

Comparing to the? The what?

Should've read ahead, sorry.

candycane

===
user is generated from /dev/urandom

...A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)

Hi Esc,

On Thursday August 17 2023, Esc said to esc:

It's not hard when you run mystic.. Just ssh into your vps, and
run nodespy... I assert sshing into a VPS and waiting around for

someone to dial in so I can run nodespy counts as a "concerted effort"
- especially when comparing to the.

No idea why this was cut off, but it was supposed to be "especially when comparing to the old days when we knew someone connected to our BBS
because we heard the phone ring" :P

You had a phone connected at the same time? #-) After the initial setup of
my system back in the day, the phone was removed and the modem's speaker
turned off.. When I upgraded to a USR, the only way I knew then was from the relay clicking (Otherwise I'd have to be watching the modem's lights)...



\/orlon
aka
Stephen

Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

--- Zeus BBS 1.5
* Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)

If you've EVER used a BBS, you'd know that email/messages on a BBS are
NOT private and can be read by the sysop. Anything on their system is free game, as it is THEIR system. It's a PERSONAL system, not a
company.

Thanks for proving the point. And thats what PGP is for. If a Sysop doesnt
want to allow encrypted messages on their board or message network, then
don't. Maybe some PERSONAL systems wouldn't mind including support for it if they could. No one is attacking YOUR view of how a BBS should function, calm down. I don't know why anyone would be against better security over the
public internet.

Like I said, this could already be put to use today, without changing how messages are delivered and stored, or anything at all, and I wouldn't doubt if people have somewhere, somtime. You could encrypt a message with gpg, paste
it into a Netmail message, and the recipient could copy that out and decrypt. As someone else mentioned, there is no rules in FSX that says you cannot do this.

Building the encrypt/decrypt into a message reader/writer would be the challenge here, but probably not terrible with python/mystic.

Below is my key if someone wants to try and send me a test message over Netmail. Ganiman(21:3/174)

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

xsFNBFZJzQwBEADCY6T0xBcCC24JDlUYP0QFai7JAjhi94aOw5p0iX0WZOzcYyEw l997OggJX5VYqUDOpUfO0ceFqskFvTwJwlJ8UTxzxkp2ATzFbtjzAN6J1DoEuM6p r72yWETAhi4KAngFjbF7AwZvd0xsolzhe/Pr1wGrFZ7Ep81shvzGKDt4PIbhJfSC HZucMvCppyuANSfuoj+73KANtvux0BRubyERc1mHUhFvuJf4834dXC1LbQa0Icjy wzrtFAETaF6+55JHPx8Ywb6fk+Y/CTccnvSaVRgtyqhYtIn3b2pGQa+Nn+k875XY 0PisxMMNBO/BlAy0r9T+1ltVJttFCGkqTr7k/UkmNYGNX2a71i2Hs2TLsPLVzkM+ r0rQXrPPr/hyarH1PwGfgbKRncf20R621sBU7kn4koarG24uLHjPR0j8gOu6H8Ik Obv6Th7wQG0EESiLz9gMRHDW59P54F1Y23wSNbtkVdp1cv8CyDm3nTlZij+lwD43 ZjKcSQ0pizk3HFvQIsPPLk0aB4+rlxd0c1mP+6L6yu6vVc4f68ZPLwg82K4hGgTQ 2K6/MN0mNLvCQqXBxgUpV2vUKXR/xls+rLyyl6PNU0TzKA5kz3wVLC3wOpO6AjD0 GaNAZPTuNapXYVG/hPPuHR63nONEA3/nyCZb053zpD3Kzir2GJW8cPJGFQARAQAB zSFDaHJpcyBNYW5pZ2FuIDxnYW5pbWFuQGdtYWlsLmNvbT7CwXUEEAEIACkFAlZJ zRQGCwkIBwMCCRAlkDmnPCd84wQVCAIKAxYCAQIZAQIbAwIeAQAAny4P/jPBB1L8 U5wz4bJjl7ZZupUIM3fp6kHJGppvshw473s4yqfn1pH+0XzWxZQ1HxLbDfzsR4W4 0Kq6E9+fWVqeRPXPvWH/SR1AAb4eXWDhyTnLz/GNdWUxpi0eoThg7mMzZNmR2676 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=Vgw0
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

---
Ganiman
bbs.madetoraid.com:[2323/2222]

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Made to Raid BBS (21:3/174)

Ganiman wrote to Exodus <=-

Below is my key if someone wants to try and send me a test message over Netmail. Ganiman(21:3/174)

I am a user at Vertrauen http://vert.synchro.net/

I get some problems trying to send the test message.

In multimail I got the error Netmail not available.

If I enter the netmail online, to Ganiman@21:3/174 I seem to be able to send netmail,
however, inserting the PGP message with <control V> does not work.

Chris
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)