On 07 Dec 2022 at 01:19p, Adept pondered and said...
(I'm behind on messages, so perhaps this already got talked about)
If it helps I am too :)
Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
One thing I'm still not comfortable with regarding web apps is that if your internet service goes down, you'll be unable to access/run those programs. I still like to have locally-installed software.
esc wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
It's time to embrace the horror. The web Microsoft365 apps run pretty
well and provide a much fuller experience than G Suite - and run well
on Linux browsers.
I'm not sure I agree about the M365 vs GSuite - I have been on GSuite since January and previously on Microsoft products and I far and away prefer GSuite for collaboration. But I guess it's subjective. *shrug*
Weatherman wrote to Poindexter Fortran <=-
Fortunately, Google made the right decision to continue to allow the
early adopters with custom domains on the legacy free tier. It is suprising to me that Microsoft pricing is lower than Google in that
space.
Before that decision was made, I was ready to ditch Google and host my
own email again. I had everything ready to go - as there is no way I
will pay business rates for personal/family access. For some unknown reason, Google doesn't offer a family plan at all for G Suite. Very
odd and in my opinion, they could get more revenue if they did offer a family tier like Microsoft.
Weatherman wrote to Poindexter Fortran <=-
Using eCS to manage a modern virtual environment - that rocks!
eCS and Arca OS both run fine on ESXi 6.7. I have never found an operating system that doesn't run in a virtual environment.
Warpslide wrote to Nightfox <=-
We recently explored various Microsoft cloud offerings, one of them
being something called "Universal Print". This moves your print server
to the cloud and also lets you set permissions for your various
locations as to who can print where, all kind of neat.
Until you realize that if you loose internet access, you can't print.
You could be sitting right next to a printer, on the same network, but
if your location loses internet access, no printing for you.
killer wrote to Warpslide <=-
Surprising what actually gets implemented. Feel like at times it is security through obscurity. Once IBM gets their hands in a cookie jar they have a tendency to keep a tight grip on things.
killer wrote to Atreyu <=-
Makes spying on your competitors so much easier when their data is all stored in the cloud and they don't notice the extra resource
consumption as your are indexing their data.
Google started in the cloud. Microsoft is dragging everyone, kicking and screaming to the cloud. It is all about the control and recurring revenue. TheI don't mind the cloud, as long as I can choose who my masters are. I am
old model of buy hardware or an OS and keep that running for 15+ years is not
acceptable to companies these days.
My killer app is still Outlook, though - with a full-fledged mobile
client like Nine, I can use my notes field for data capture and fully populate the tasks and calendar, and do most of my organization in one
app. If G suite gave tasks a solid app, it'd be a contender for me.
I had an early legacy free tier account, and back around 2010 they
offered a free trial of the paid features - and sneakily, no way to go
back to the free tier.
I tried in Proxmox and could install eCS but not boot. I should try
again, as I was probably one of the earliest adopters of OS/2 around
here. I used OS/2 1.2 before it had a GUI!
I don't mind the cloud, as long as I can choose who my masters are. I am using Proton as my provider right now.
Sometimes it can be what a person is more accustomed to using. I
always thought Groupwise calendar was much better than Outlook, but I
also way more used to using Groupwise years ago.
I wrote a book using Google Docs, and even when I was without internet access, could still access the doc and make offline changes. I haven't tried that with Microsoft365 yet.
Groupwise! There's a name I haven't thought about in awhile. I worked at a place that was still running Groupwise when I started there in 2009. I dragged them away from that to Exchange (and later Office 365).
When we went to Exchange/Outlook the most common question I got was "how
do I
know if they've read my email" as with Groupwise you could check to see if the message had both been delivered & then read if you were sending to someone internal. I showed them how to ask for read receipts in Outlook
but they complained "it's not the same!".
My spin on it was that OS/2 multitasked DOS apps amazingly well (being able to run DOS windows with Novell drivers while still having lots of memory, running lots of DOS windows, and so on...) but as soon as hardware continued to improve, that became moot.
Our organization used the Blackberry for many years before standardizing on the iPhone (gasp). I am the ONLY rebel in the 20k+ organization that has a company paid android. Not only do I deviate on the mobile phone, but on the mobile carrier. Everyone with company phones use Verizon and I use Sprint/T-Mobile.
Novell was awesome back in the day. I was a CNE and used to administer larg Novell networks back in the 3.12 days and even 4.10 days. I performed many large 3.12->4.10 migrations to Novell NDS back in the day. NDS was better b
Yes, but unfortunately Microsoft has been creating far too many "Wizards" th now make things more complicated on the more recent operating systems than t previous versions. It takes more clicks to just edit your IP address on Windows these days. They need a global "disable all wizards" toggle!
I will find a way to run everything on Linux if all the future modern OS are tied to the cloud. More than half the population only really need a browser so the Chrome OS is good enough for them.
I like my Iphone SE, 1st gen as I have no compelling reason to upgrade.
Wow thats impressive! I never caught on to Novell. I actually didn't
really get into serious networking stuff until Windows NT4 / 2000.
What absolutely kills me... makes me laugh... actually laugh from the belly... are Powershell fanatics. These are seriously people from another planet.
I've worked with PS, written some scripts with it and mannnnnn... the
syntax for the most basic of operation I found to be Rube Goldberg convoluted in design and execution.
They've completely missed the joke... that you're spending countless hours on
a command prompt of a "Windows" OS. Just like Windows Server installs without
the GUI. It completely goes against the whole point of a GUI, the whole name.
Same here, I'll be dragged kicking and screaming into installing Linux... actually I do like the BSD variants. NetBSD and FreeBSD. They just seem a bit more mature and meant for long-term stability.
One thing I'm still not comfortable with regarding web apps is that if your internet service goes down, you'll be unable to access/run those programs. I still like to have locally-installed software. Otherwise,
if software is all web-based (or otherwise runs from an internet
server), we wouldn't need much more than dumb terminals at home (whereas typically it's a good thing to have your own storage and processing
power at home).. In some ways, it seems like computing is coming full-circle.
Nightfox
I agree that powershell has a convoluted syntax that makes some of the 200 character command line options in Linux look basic. The execution of powershell is a mess.
I understand why Microsoft created this - all in the name of "automation and scripting". Why not use APIs, or any other straight forward method towards automation.
eCS and Arca OS both run fine on ESXi 6.7. I have never found an operating system that doesn't run in a virtual environment.
It's weird, the whole point of the "Personal Computer" was that we would get to own our computers, and run our own local software without having to worry about timeshare, or using someone elses system. It seems as if they are wanting to undo the whole "Personal Computer" thing and move us back to using other peoples machines which they control.
Software developers truly suck, for creating this terrible situation. Our
One thing I'm still not comfortable with regarding web apps is that
if your internet service goes down, you'll be unable to access/run
those programs. I still like to have locally-installed software.
I wrote a book using Google Docs, and even when I was without internet access, could still access the doc and make offline changes. I haven't tried that with Microsoft365 yet.
Re: Re: 2017/2018 PC to modernize it.
By: boraxman to Nightfox on Sun Nov 06 2022 09:55 pm
It's weird, the whole point of the "Personal Computer" was that we wo get to own our computers, and run our own local software without havi worry about timeshare, or using someone elses system. It seems as if are wanting to undo the whole "Personal Computer" thing and move us b to using other peoples machines which they control.
I've had basically the same thought. It's a weird situation.
Software developers truly suck, for creating this terrible situation.
I imagine it has more to do with them doing what their employer wants, rather than choosing themselves that this was a good idea. I'm a
software developer professionally, and it wouldn't be my first choice.
Nightfox
esc wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
I wrote a book using Google Docs, and even when I was without internet access, could still access the doc and make offline changes. I haven't tried that with Microsoft365 yet.
You can't tease a book like that without sharing a link ;)
Warpslide wrote to Weatherman <=-
Groupwise! There's a name I haven't thought about in awhile. I worked
at a place that was still running Groupwise when I started there in
2009. I dragged them away from that to Exchange (and later Office
365).
Atreyu wrote to Weatherman <=-
Wow thats impressive! I never caught on to Novell. I actually didn't really get into serious networking stuff until Windows NT4 / 2000.
Weatherman wrote to Atreyu <=-
past 3 years is adding a technology called OTV (overlay transport virtualization). Fancy term for a VPN on steroids. It allows you to
run the same VLANs/networks at the same time in two data centers on
routed network links. You can even route the same networks on both
sides at the same time. Perfect for HA in VMware.
I'm dating myself - I worked at a mac/windows shop in the early '90s, and my boss had a plan to replace a mac-based email system called QuickMail with WordPerfect Office, an earlier version of Groupwise. It took so long to try and customize it for what we were going to use that people got tired of waiting, and we set up a BSD box with Qpopper and bought copies of Eudora Pro for the office. Turns out that we didn't need groupware, just email - and Eudora/POP3 worked great.
I have the Eudora sound on my phone for new mail, still. :)
It was a post-apocalyptic novel I wrote during NANOWRIMO a few years
ago. I've been meaning to clean it up and publish it on Amazon for a while...
I completely agree. Keep the power at home. If you want a web app then
host it locally and access it across the internet. Nextcloud offers all
the goodies Google has and you can do it on a PI if you don't have a
server sitting around.
The one scripting language I actually didn't mind, was Rexx on OS/2.
AFAIK OS/2 v1.3 won't run that easily in a virtual environment,
because it was 'optimized' for a 286 processor.
Sounds like something we're doing at work with our SD-WAN and firewalls.
We were able to extend a subnet from one office to another during a
server migration. Pretty wild stuff, the last time I did networking as
part of my job networks were physically isolated.
Matthew Munson wrote to All <=-
Since Windows 11 does not accept my Ryzen 1700x, should I upgrade it to
a 3700x on my B350-Prime Plus motherboard (i flashed my bios for this)
and perhaps buy a 1tb ssd to upgrade my storage at the same time.
Exodus wrote to Gamgee <=-
Wipe that virus-laden "OS" off the computer, install Linux, and keep on moving forward. Cost = 0.
I love the version of Ubuntu that has ADS in the terminal window ....
that was classy for whoever did that.
Gamgee wrote to Nightfox <=-
Just a weak attempt at humor. I'm anti-Windows and sometimes can't
resist poking at it... ;-)
I don't remember that at all, but I am not big on Ubuntu in general. Still, what was your point?
It's weird, the whole point of the "Personal Computer" was that we would get to own our computers, and run our own local software without having
to worry about timeshare, or using someone elses system. It seems as if they are wanting to undo the whole "Personal Computer" thing and move us back to using other peoples machines which they control.
just keeps growing as everything connects to the network these days. It won't be long until my toilet will be able to count flushes per day and will be on my home LAN.
I remember hearing that before. Do you know if the ATMs are still using OS/2 or was that just back in the day?
You bring up a good point. Collaboration is much more complicated (to
me) under 365 than in G Suite. The office apps in Microsoft 365, both
the web apps and desktop apps feel much more functional than their G suite counterparts.
What?! Five extra flushes today! That will be 5 DOGE penalty per flush!
I think a large number are still using it. The multimedia ones are the
ones most likely using embedded Windows, but if they are still old school text interface most likely OS/2 still.
killer wrote to boraxman <=-
different. There will be another evolution and we will swing back the other way honestly. Just the simple fact that Internet access is not always around will force people to move away from the cloud eventually.
You know... I don't ever remember the Linux crowd ever going after
OS/2. There was this odd level of calm, a mutual respect between
the two.
Maybe because some of the Linux people once used OS/2...
That's at least my story.
I am likely just going to buy a 5600G processor to replace the 1700x.
Ha, and here I am running an AMD Phenom II. That CPU you're getting
rid of would run rings around my *main* rig. Kids these days with
their newfangled processor doohickeys!
Main reason I'm turned off games. Spending $000's to play the same type of games I've already played.
I got a switch for the kids instead. That will suffice.
But I suppose that's different from computer gaming. I mostly haven't bothered there, but spent lots on a computer because I wanted to be able to run demoscene productions (and hopefully eventually make some), and, well, that requires something that can play the latest games.
On the one hand, they're shutting off the ability to purchase anything more on the 3DS as of March 2023 or so, but on the other, at the end of life for a system is one of the nice times to buy.
Main reason I'm turned off games. Spending $000's to play the same t of games I've already played.
I got a switch for the kids instead. That will suffice.
I picked up a 3DS recently, and then won a fairly-inexpensive auction
for a bunch of games for the system.
On the one hand, they're shutting off the ability to purchase anything more on the 3DS as of March 2023 or so, but on the other, at the end of life for a system is one of the nice times to buy.
But hard to find other people who actively play it.
But I suppose that's different from computer gaming. I mostly haven't bothered there, but spent lots on a computer because I wanted to be able to run demoscene productions (and hopefully eventually make some), and, well, that requires something that can play the latest games.
So I guess I still have the expensive habit, if for a different reason.
But I do think your approach is a very good one -- you should be able to enjoy the games just as much, but at a small fraction of the cost. Definitely a good idea.
The original XBox is one of my all time favorite consoles, and
enthusiasts have resurrected the xboxlive store (or whatever it is) in a community supported way. It's super cool and my description here is
pretty reductive to the reality but perhaps there will be some community effort for the 3DS at some point. I agree the 3DS is an amazing gaming platform, and there are /so/ many classic games for it which are all
just phenomenal.
I'm the only one who really is "into gaming", and even then, it is not that much. Part of the reason I stopped (apart from getting older,
having a family, etc), is that I don't really want to use Windows as I consider Microsoft pretty evil. Linux runs most of what I'm interested in, Wine/Proton fills the gaps.
However, the Demoscene is something else and to be honest, its something I've wanted to get back into, though I've never made demos, only enjoyed watching them.
Im thinking about buying 100 bucks of 3ds games before the shut down. I might write a buyers guide.
I hope you're right, though I also wonder how much Nintendo would allow such things to happen.
But nice to know there are lots of phenomenal 3DS games.
The great thing about the DS/DS-Lite was that multiple people with a console could wirelessly tether to one another, and oftentimes only one person needed to have a cart for everyone else to play live. We used to play Mario Kart all the time...it was an awesome way to pass the time,
for sure.
E.g., a lot of people code for older systems, or make something using Pico-8. Which, while it's not old, certainly feels like it could be.
But I've wanted to play around with newer things. And, well, be able to use Unreal Engine, even if I wouldn't necessarily only use it.
I do prefer the older hardware. IT seems more interesting, because its not as opaque. The new iPhone doesn't interest me because its so hard
to get to the underlying hardware. The original IBM PC? Now that is interesting because I can control every aspect of that machine.
boraxman wrote to Adept <=-
The original IBM PC? Now that is
interesting because I can control every aspect of that machine.
The original IBM PC? Now that is
interesting because I can control every aspect of that machine.
True. I started with a Commodore 64, but it wasn't until I got a PC-XT clone that things really got interesting. There were virtually *no*
ports on the motherboard, everything was done with add-on cards. So,
you could incrementally upgrade it easily. I started with replacing the 8088 CPU with a V20, getting a math co-processor for my CS classwork, upgrading the hard drive and controller to RLL to get more space, then replacing the motherboard with an AT/287, inheriting a card that added memory to the system along with more I/O... by the time I was done the only things left original were the power supply and the case.
I don't mind windows 11, it's much nicer than windows 10, but the hardware requirements suck.
The one thing I absolutely hated about Win11 was the right-click flyout menu in file explorer. Burying all the useful options in submenus requiring more clicking around was pretty lame.
(I'm behind on messages, so perhaps this already got talked about)
What I'm struggling with, with Win11, along with what you're saying, are
But, in general, Win11 seems fine to me. I can't say I particularly
_care_ about how it's different from Win10, but largely it does what I want, and I can ignore it most of the time.
And that's the state I want for an OS. Basically stop thinking about it.
Since Windows 11 does not accept my Ryzen 1700x, should I upgrade it to
a 3700x on my
B350-Prime Plus motherboard (i flashed my bios for this) and perhaps buy
a 1tb ssd to
upgrade my storage at the same time.
Also is a 1070 Nvidia card still ok for this, or should I go for the
gusto and get a 3060.
Or just buy a bleepin new computer?
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.1
Matthew Munson wrote to All <=-
Since Windows 11 does not accept my Ryzen 1700x, should I upgrade
it to a 3700x on my B350-Prime Plus motherboard (i flashed my
bios for this) and perhaps buy a 1tb ssd to upgrade my storage at
the same time.
Also is a 1070 Nvidia card still ok for this, or should I go for
the gusto and get a 3060.
Not sure if it's changed, but you can't find/get high end video cards
Also is a 1070 Nvidia card still ok for this, or should I go for
the gusto and get a 3060.
Not sure if it's changed, but you can't find/get high end video cards
these days. Also, nobody can actually answer that question because we
don't know what you intend to do with the video card. High end gaming?
Web browsing and reading email? We can't read your mind.
Mandarax wrote to Gamgee <=-
Not sure if it's changed, but you can't find/get high end video cards
Video Cards are easily available now, and prices have fallen
extensively.
Weatherman wrote to Gamgee <=-
Also is a 1070 Nvidia card still ok for this, or should I go for
the gusto and get a 3060.
Not sure if it's changed, but you can't find/get high end video cards
these days. Also, nobody can actually answer that question because we
don't know what you intend to do with the video card. High end gaming?
Web browsing and reading email? We can't read your mind.
Video card prices have dropped a good bit the past month or so
post etherium merge. Even though it was difficult to find cards
most of this year, I was able to get several from Microcenter
this past year.
A good card for the price is the 3060ti. I have (2) of them -
Asus mini versions that I paid $399 each. My PC has (5) GPUs
since it does mining while I work.
Wipe that virus-laden "OS" off the computer, install Linux, and keep on moving forward. Cost = 0.
Why buy an Operating System that cannot operate your computer? It seems a pretty dismal failure on Microsoft's part, to not be able to make relatively recent computers operate.
Exodus wrote to Gamgee <=-
Wipe that virus-laden "OS" off the computer, install Linux, and keep on moving forward. Cost = 0.
I love the version of Ubuntu that has ADS in the terminal window
.... that was classy for whoever did that.
Why buy an Operating System that cannot operate your computer? It seem pretty dismal failure on Microsoft's part, to not be able to make relat recent computers operate.
I want to play Final Fantasy 14. I think not supporting ryzen 1st gen
was a crime against
humanity (e-waste).
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.1
Look into whether Wine or Proton supports it. Linux support for games non-complex Windows program, you were out of luck. But now you can get many games running under Linux.
Look into whether Wine or Proton supports it. Linux support for game non-complex Windows program, you were out of luck. But now you can g many games running under Linux.
I play FF online and WoW here and there when I have the time these
days. These and a number of games that really utilize a good graphics card run like poop under wine on linux. It's not worth it to me. On my gaming PC I will stick to Windows 11. The gaming and graphics
performance is just a very very noticeable difference to me.
I do use linux for many many other things. Which includes my VPS that runs my BBS, web server, mail server, etc.. etc. The only gaming I find worth it on linux is a Steam supported game. Then they tend to run
fairly well on linux.
Since Windows 11 does not accept my Ryzen 1700x, should I upgrade
Wipe that virus-laden "OS" off the computer, install Linux, and keep on moving forward. Cost = 0.
Also is a 1070 Nvidia card still ok for this, or should I go for
the gusto and get a 3060.
Not sure if it's changed, but you can't find/get high end video cards these days.
A good card for the price is the 3060ti. I have (2) of them -
Asus mini versions that I paid $399 each. My PC has (5) GPUs
since it does mining while I work.
Wow, nice. Trying to picture how that works... what bus/connector do
they use? My outdated knowledge remembers only seeing one or two connectors (PCIe?) generally, for video cards.
Look into whether Wine or Proton supports it. Linux support for games has come a long long way. It used to be that if you wanted to play anything that didn't have a Linux port, or wasn't some old basic, non-complex Windows program, you were out of luck. But now you can get many games running under Linux.
What do you mean by virus-laden? I'd think it's only really easy to get
a virus if you're going to sketchy web sites and/or downloading sketchy stuff.
If we expand the concept of virus to include Spyware, adware, etc., then Microsoft has it up to the gills in Win10/11.
Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-
Re: Re: 2017/2018 PC to modernize it.
By: Gamgee to Matthew Munson on Mon Oct 31 2022 07:57 am
Since Windows 11 does not accept my Ryzen 1700x, should I upgrade
Wipe that virus-laden "OS" off the computer, install Linux, and keep on moving forward. Cost = 0.
What do you mean by virus-laden? I'd think it's only really easy
to get a virus if you're going to sketchy web sites and/or
downloading sketchy stuff.
Not sure if it's changed, but you can't find/get high end video cards these days.
I started to see graphics card prices coming down and stock
returning to stores months ago. People were starting to joke
that scalpers were trying to return their graphics cards to the
store because they couldn't scalp them anymore.
Why buy an Operating System that cannot operate your computer? It seem
pretty dismal failure on Microsoft's part, to not be able to make relat
recent computers operate.
I want to play Final Fantasy 14. I think not supporting ryzen 1st gen was a crime against
humanity (e-waste).
Look into whether Wine or Proton supports it. Linux support for games has come
a long long way. It used to be that if you wanted to play anything that didn't
have a Linux port, or wasn't some old basic, non-complex Windows program, you
were out of luck. But now you can get many games running under Linux.
In terms of the e-waste, and the crime, I agree. It is a terrible crime against the planet's ecosystem to do this as it *will* result in more waste, and that waste ends up poisoning us in the near future. Both the acquisition
of, and disposal/recycling (if it gets recycled at all) generates long term toxic waste.
In the end, I decided that my responsibility to future generations, and the choices *I* choose to make, are more important than some video games. Corporations have no responsibility or conscious, despite their claims. We individuals have to act as the better people and turn our backs on them.
Not sure if it's changed, but you can't find/get high end video cards these days. Also, nobody can actually answer that question because we don't know what you intend to do with the video card. High end gaming? Web browsing and reading email? We can't read your mind.
Just a weak attempt at humor. I'm anti-Windows and sometimes can't
resist poking at it... ;-)
and use Linux for everything else. If you can avoid using Windows 11
for games, you can run the latest OS and browsers and such under Linux, games, and not have to buy a whole new machine just to run Windows 11.
I've been running Windows 10 since it came out (and now 11), and I don't recall seeing ads in Windows. Also I've turned off the settings it has
in regards to watching my usage habits etc..
Do you feel like you've been negatively impacted by anything in Windows
10 or 11? I've thought about switching to Linux myself at some point,
but since I started using Windows 10, I can't think of anything that has really changed or any way I've been negatively impacted by anything
since I started using Windows 10.
And all the fixes, all the halfassed drivers, all the freaking things
just to run it on a "modern" Pentium MMX with a large hard-drive and
basic ATI video card and newfangled USB and reinstalling was always out
of the question.
Since Windows 11 does not accept my Ryzen 1700x, should I upgrade it
to a 3700x on my B350-Prime Plus motherboard (i flashed my bios for
this) and perhaps buy a 1tb ssd to upgrade my storage at the same
time.
Also is a 1070 Nvidia card still ok for this, or should I go for
the gusto and get a 3060.
Or just buy a bleepin new computer?
Several months ago, I tried to get a Windows game going in Linux with Proton, and it seemed to have some problems running.. I don't
remember what happened now but it didn't run quite right. I'd have to
mess with it some more or try other games. But it didn't seem like
Proton is quite there yet as an easy solution to run Windows games in
Linux.
And all the fixes, all the halfassed drivers, all the freaking things just to run it on a "modern" Pentium MMX with a large hard-drive and basic ATI video card and newfangled USB and reinstalling was always out of the question.
As a morbid curiosity I purchased ArcaOS last year and installed it on modern-ish hardware. Quite a trip to see in person :)
As a morbid curiosity I purchased ArcaOS last year and installed it on modern-ish hardware. Quite a trip to see in person :)
You know... I don't ever remember the Linux crowd ever going after OS/2. There was this odd level of calm, a mutual respect between the two.
I am likely just going to buy a 5600G processor to replace the 1700x.
I'll offer the used
1700x free to a hobbyist who wants to make a low cost entry level computer. I don't
have a need for a 800-1000 dollar graphics processor, I could help pay rent for the room
i live in, help save for retirement, or use the money for a vacation.
But the goal is to
make my computer last for another 4 years.
I didn't purchase a new machine just to run Windows 11. My gaming PC
is custom built by myself for the purpose of high gaming performance.
My other Windows computer is a surface pro that is very small and I use
to run my vehicle tuning software that only runs on Windows, so I keep Windows 11 on that as well.
My other 2 computers are both running Arch linux, and my VPS is running Debian.
Insomnia City BBS SysOp
Kalamazoo, MI USA
Wow, nice. Trying to picture how that works... what bus/connector do
they use? My outdated knowledge remembers only seeing one or two
connectors (PCIe?) generally, for video cards.
I was such a stubborn diehard with that silly OS/2 and problems at the
time.
And all the fixes, all the halfassed drivers, all the freaking things just to run it on a "modern" Pentium MMX with a large hard-drive and basic ATI video card and newfangled USB and reinstalling was always out of the question.
Every update I've had to elect /not/ to have ads in my start menu, or personalized ads in platform in general. It's really just an annoyance.
I also got frustrated with the constant effort to make me use Edge. So,
in linux, I manage everything explicitly and don't have any commercial organization trying to change my behavior or experience when I don't intentionally opt in. It's just a preference.
I prefer doing my dev work in a linux environment and while I appreciate WSL (and now WSL2), it was always at the end of the day just a linux VM eating up resources. And it was temperamental. More than once, my WSL install needed to get blown away and restarted from scratch.
In linux, this is all just native. Honestly the sole thing I miss from Windows is better native game support, but with this laptop's intel GPU I'm not missing much.
Weatherman wrote to Gamgee <=-
Wow, nice. Trying to picture how that works... what bus/connector do
they use? My outdated knowledge remembers only seeing one or two
connectors (PCIe?) generally, for video cards.
True, most systems only have the ability to use (2) GPUs using
the PCIe slots. The only reason I have (5) GPUs is because my
main PC doubles as a crypto miner and (3) of the GPUs are on PCIe
risers with the cards mounted on the top of the PC case
(externally).
Atreyu wrote to Gamgee <=-
On 01 Nov 22 19:04:00, Gamgee said the following to Nightfox:
Just a weak attempt at humor. I'm anti-Windows and sometimes can't
resist poking at it... ;-)
You know... I don't ever remember the Linux crowd ever going
after OS/2. There was this odd level of calm, a mutual respect
between the two.
I was such a stubborn diehard with that silly OS/2 and problems
at the time.
And all the fixes, all the halfassed drivers, all the freaking
things just to run it on a "modern" Pentium MMX with a large
hard-drive and basic ATI video card and newfangled USB and
reinstalling was always out of the question.
killer wrote to Gamgee <=-
Not sure if it's changed, but you can't find/get high end video cards these days. Also, nobody can actually answer that question because we don't know what you intend to do with the video card. High end gaming? Web browsing and reading email? We can't read your mind.
Well knowing the goal of the card is imperative. But you can
definitely find video cards now. The glut is gone for sure.
Specifically because Ethereum merge is done.
... Diplomacy is saying 'Nice Doggy' until you find a rock.
The other major thing that plagued OS2 for many years is the lack of decent networking support. Always way behind on the network side of things.
I absolutely love linux but it does has its share or problems, particularly inI have a hostility to big tech. I am likely going to use Proton for my storage service, and
gaming. Personally I've invested a lot of time and to some extent money on windows. So I opted to debloat, harden, and remove telemetry from my windows installation. I also replaced commercial software with open source alternatives. I'm quite content with it. Still have my fedora partition in any
case I have to jump ship.
And please understand, I'm actually *not* a Linux "evangelist". I use
it nearly exclusively, but I understand the Windows world and why it
will continue to exist. I'm not actively campaigning against it. ;-)
I prefer doing my dev work in a linux environment and while I appreciate WSL (and now WSL2), it was always at the end of the day just a linux VM eating up resources. And it was temperamental. More than once, my WSL install needed to get blown away and restarted from scratch.
In linux, this is all just native. Honestly the sole thing I miss from Windows is better native game support, but with this laptop's intel GPU I'm not missing much.
Just a weak attempt at humor. I'm anti-Windows and sometimes can't
resist poking at it... ;-)
You know... I don't ever remember the Linux crowd ever going after OS/2. There was this odd level of calm, a mutual respect between the two.
As a morbid curiosity I purchased ArcaOS last year and installed it on modern-ish hardware. Quite a trip to see in person :)
I've had a few people say very nice things about Arca but if its true that one must pay a yearly "subscription" then thats unfortunate.
slots. The only reason I have (5) GPUs is because my main PC doubles as a crypto miner and (3) of the GPUs are on PCIe risers with the cards mounted on the top of the PC case (externally).
Atreyu wrote to Gamgee <=-
On 02 Nov 22 07:34:00, Gamgee said the following to Atreyu:
And please understand, I'm actually *not* a Linux "evangelist". I use
it nearly exclusively, but I understand the Windows world and why it
will continue to exist. I'm not actively campaigning against it. ;-)
Up until about six months ago I was administering/babysitting a
couple of Linux VM's. I'd consider my Bash skillset between
beginner and intermediate, and really wasn't that much work to do
on them. I just can't bring myself to use Linux at home and of
course all my BBS stuff is out of the question.
On the other hand... Microsoft is getting really stupid with
Windows 11... well I guess things went off the rails beyond XP or
7.
I largely stopped becoming a fan after Windows 7 with their
decision to have the OS do everything short of sexually
gratifying my morning wood. When Windows was just an OS that ran
programs, things were actually okay.
Now Windows talks to me like it wants to be friends. Talk to me
like a computer, not a workout buddy. Give me hexadecimal errors
when you crash, not frowny-face sad kitten QR codes. And don't
tell me how "sorry" you are or how I might enjoy Candy crush in
my start menu even on a supposedly professional-edition of that
OS.
Taking away taskbar labels in 11 is a huge turnoff for me and
anyone else that must work at least a dozen or so windows open at
once. And I'm not installing some stupid bugridden shareware
startmenu crap to fix it.
I have often wondered why I didn't find OS/2
attractive back then. Never really even tried it. I was immersed in
MSDOS and saw no reason or need to try anything else. I was even late
to the Win3 and Win95 parties, although I certainly did use them
eventually. Then 98 and even <gasp> WinME, finally XP. It was about
then (1998 or so) that I discovered Linux, and over the next 3-4 years moved to it completely. :-)
I've had a few people say very nice things about Arca but if its true
that one must pay a yearly "subscription" then thats unfortunate.
I imagine part of it is that people generally like to question (and sometime be more critical of) the most popular/dominant thing. OS/2 became an underd when Windows started to become the default OS installed on many computers. the mid-90s, I was a bit frustrated with Windows and Microsoft's practices sometimes and would have liked to see OS/2 take over somehow. In that situation though, I imagine people may have ended up complaining about OS/2 lot more..
Yeah, I'm not big on subscription software. If it stops running if you don' renew, that would be bad. But I've seen some subscription software where if you don't renew, you can keep using it but you won't get updates. I think that's fairly similar to the usual model of buying a new version when it com out, and I'd be more okay with that.
Modern Linux is surprisingly easy to use right out of the box. Even a
bash skillset is not really a requirement for most. If you're not
locked in to using specific Windows software for home, you likely could switch over without too much hassle.
Your BBS stuff is another matter, for sure. Are you running all of that
on bare-metal DOS hardware, or on a 32-bit Windows machine? I think
it's uber-cool that you run DOS stuff, actually.
I started hearing about Linux around 1995 or 1996 when my dad was playing wi it at home, but I never really tried to seriously use Linux until around 199 or 2000. I bought a boxed copy of SuSE Linux at CompUSA around then and installed it on my PC in a dual-boot setup..
Atreyu wrote to Gamgee <=-
On 02 Nov 22 11:29:00, Gamgee said the following to Atreyu:
Modern Linux is surprisingly easy to use right out of the box. Even a
bash skillset is not really a requirement for most. If you're not
locked in to using specific Windows software for home, you likely could switch over without too much hassle.
My main computer at home is a Falcon trading station with six
monitors. I inherited this from a client who retired from
finance. I use it whenever I work from home. I'm not really
locked into Windows-specific stuff but all my work revolves
around the cult that is MS-Office. Outlook, Excel, Teams... I
can't just replace those with alternatives. At least not easily.
The Excel work for one job involves a freaking mess of macros and
VBA.
Your BBS stuff is another matter, for sure. Are you running all of that
on bare-metal DOS hardware, or on a 32-bit Windows machine? I think
it's uber-cool that you run DOS stuff, actually.
Professor Hud doesn't think so. ;)
Yes my BBS is all in 32-bit Windows XP on Vmware EXSI. Windows
being nothing more than a glorified multitasker for all the DOS
stuff.
It made sense to move to Vmware since I manage that stuff at work
and home for other things. There was no real need to run
bare-metal anymore so the beatup IBM R51 that gave many good
years of uptime was retired after 15~20+ years.
The board must run on Windows XP and nothing higher because I'm
100% convinced there is a bug in NTVDM in higher versions where
Microsoft did something that would crash DOS sessions with
bizarre problems. I gave up and left it on XP.
Yes, I have heard that Office-related stuff comes pretty close to
locking in to Windows. The opensource/Linux alternatives can have
problems with complicated documents.
Excellent. Makes good sense to me. I'm sure the hand-wringers let you know how much of a "security risk" it is to run an XP box... LOL
run it on a "modern" Pentium MMX with a large hard-drive and basic ATI video card and newfangled USB and reinstalling was always out of the question.
Only the professor made a stink about it... nobody cares otherwise.
I suppose so. I dunno, maybe its a personal thing, I just never was a fan of SaaS as I work at a company that has a huge ERP system and its a convoluted mess. The support from the vendor is expensive and terrible.
Only the professor made a stink about it... nobody cares otherwise.
You better upgrade that to VISTA .. it's WAY BETTER than XP!!!!
Windows Hasta La Vista
I'm still not a big fan of SaaS either..
Re: Re: 2017/2018 PC to modernize it.
By: esc to Nightfox on Tue Nov 01 2022 03:19 pm
If we expand the concept of virus to include Spyware, adware, etc., the Microsoft has it up to the gills in Win10/11.
I've been running Windows 10 since it came out (and now 11), and I don't rec
Do you feel like you've been negatively impacted by anything in Windows 10 o atively impacted by anything since I started using Windows 10.
Nightfox
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
You better upgrade that to VISTA .. it's WAY BETTER than XP!!!!
Windows Hasta La Vista
Atreyu wrote to Gamgee <=-
On 02 Nov 22 13:52:00, Gamgee said the following to Atreyu:
Excellent. Makes good sense to me. I'm sure the hand-wringers let you know how much of a "security risk" it is to run an XP box... LOL
Only the professor made a stink about it... nobody cares
otherwise.
Theres close to a hundred downlinks here in total with the vast
majority being Mystic and Synchronet, mostly all Linux or Pi
systems. I used to have an Amiga link and not too long ago I had
a downlink who connected via. dialup modem, he was the head of
some local disability-support group here in Toronto and they had
some kind of Wildcat/Viamail setup shared by attendees.
BinkD is the busiest process here by far and constantly serving connections. Tossing mail and BBS callers aren't even a blip on
resources here.
Its interesting sometimes just to sit back and watch it toss mail
to everyone... a DOS setup churning packets for a crowd of mostly
Linux boards.
I get the odd incoming slam from telnet script kiddies but
nothing serious. Probably could move away from port 23 but then
it just "aint telnet" in my opinion. Always hated having to know
a custom port to call someone's board.
Most Wintel hardware comes preloaded with crapware. It has so much of it that I swear it makes the computers weight an aditional kilogram or two.
Yeah that is cool. There are actually quite a number of examples of DOS still being used in business and science. Many retail POS / "cash register" systems use it, and I know that it runs on some very high tech modern medical devices. I think it may also be used in the financial
world some too.
Yeah that is cool. There are actually quite a number of examples of
DOS still being used in business and science. Many retail POS /
"cash register" systems use it, and I know that it runs on some very
high tech modern medical devices. I think it may also be used in
the financial world some too.
I can say that latter iterations of Windows actively try to get the user to purchase or use certain sets of services.
I can say that latter iterations of Windows actively try to get the user to purchase or use certain sets of services.
Most Wintel hardware comes preloaded with crapware. It has so much of it that I swear it makes the computers weight an aditional kilogram or two. If that does not count as advertising for products and services, I don't know what does.
Ha, and here I am running an AMD Phenom II. That CPU you're getting rid of would run rings around my *main* rig. Kids these days with their newfangled processor doohickeys!
Since Windows 11 does not accept my Ryzen 1700x, should I upgrade it
to a 3700x on my B350-Prime Plus motherboard (i flashed my bios for
this) and perhaps buy a 1tb ssd to upgrade my storage at the same
time.
As mentioned elsewhere, may look into a 5600/5600(x) as the ?700 series seems to be less available, if there's an update that far.
Also is a 1070 Nvidia card still ok for this, or should I go for
the gusto and get a 3060.
Should be fine, if you do bump up, for the 3060, unless you're doing
nvlink for live encoding, would probably consider an rx 6700 for a bit
less and roughly the same raster performance (slightly lower rtx, but
the 3060 isn't great at that anyway)
Playing Final Fantasy XIV, media consumption. BBS hosting.Or just buy a bleepin new computer?
Not sure I'd go new right now... though if you got a nice B550/570 motherboard, you could got something like 5800x/5800x3d and a faster
nvme drive. Depends on what all you do with the computer.
--
I don't remember Windows itself ever trying to get me to purchase
other services..?
That wouldn't be a fault of Windows itself, but computer makers that
install that crapware on their computers. I think it's been a while
since I've seen a computer like that, but usually I build my own
desktop PC, so I just install Windows on it without the crapware..
Re: Re: 2017/2018 PC to modernize it.
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Nov 02 2022 06:53 pm
I can say that latter iterations of Windows actively try to get the use to purchase or use certain sets of services.
I don't remember Windows ever trying to get me to purchase other services..?
Nightfox
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
I can say that latter iterations of Windows actively try to get the user
to purchase or use certain sets of services.
I don't remember Windows ever trying to get me to purchase other services..?
I don't remember Windows itself ever trying to get me to purchase
other services..?
I know it does everytime you install it, it tries to sell you Office and an XBox game subscription.
Windows 10 has a bunch of stuff it installs like disney plus, spotify
etc on the start menu.
And every few weeks it asks me to "finish setting up my computer" where
it insists I use edge and reset to the "prefered browser settings"
To me it's kind of disappointing that the OS you pay for has all the ads,
I don't mind windows 11, it's much nicer than windows 10, but the
hardware requirements suck.
I don't remember Windows ever trying to get me to purchase other
services..?
Then my bet is you ran a cleaner right after installing any Windows, and it was so long ago that you don t remember :-P
I don't remember Windows ever trying to get me to purchase other
services..?
Microsoft 365, for Office and OneDrive. Or XBOX for PC Gaming and XBOX Interaction.
I don't mind windows 11, it's much nicer than windows 10, but the
hardware requirements suck.
The Toshiba phone system there also had voicemail "card" in it with a spinni 2.5" SATA that runs Windows XP embedded. Lot of places run Windows where yo may not expect it.
I don't recall seeing any ads or anything from Windows trying to get me to purchase any of that..
The one thing I absolutely hated about Win11 was the right-click
flyout menu in file explorer. Burying all the useful options in
submenus requiring more clicking around was pretty lame.
The one thing I absolutely hated about Win11 was the right-click
flyout menu in file explorer. Burying all the useful options in submenus requiring more clicking around was pretty lame.
Yeah, that's annoying. You can actually disable it though. It's a
registry key, I had to google it, but once you enter the key the full menus are back.
Andrew
Ahhhh, OK! Now I can picture that. Was having trouble understanding
how you could fit so many video cards in a case! Thanks.
Yeah, that's annoying. You can actually disable it though. It's a registry key, I had to google it, but once you enter the key the full menus are back.
Andrew
I'm going to look for it as soon as I'm done here!Here's the link that I followed;
Agreed. It was one of the reasons I finally ditched it for Windows 2000.
my friends actually enjoy the Internet at the time while I was stuck
getting an OS/2 Netscape browser to even render a basic site correctly.
Seeing Windows "just work" with all its networking stuff and built-in RDP remote access, tape backup etc, there was no turning back. At the time I really believed Microsoft finally got it right. Remote access and proper snapshot-based backup on OS/2 was just impossible or halfassed.
I was also starting to manage a small office LAN and it just made sense to start using at home what I was using at work... we talked about this
before I
think? It was one reason I ended up buying licensing for Server 2019 and Exchange and other stuff for myself because its the only was I was going
to really learn... always hated watching Youtube videos.
Taking away taskbar labels in 11 is a huge turnoff for me and anyone else that must work at least a dozen or so windows open at once. And I'm not installing some stupid bugridden shareware startmenu crap to fix it.
I've heard there are some 'external' GPUs that can be connected via Thunderbolt or similar high-speed external connection (maybe USB 3.1 could be fast enough too?).
Modern Linux is surprisingly easy to use right out of the box. Even a
bash skillset is not really a requirement for most. If you're not
locked in to using specific Windows software for home, you likely could switch over without too much hassle.
When OS/2 worked for me it worked very well, ran my board like clockwork.
Months... many months of uptime. But as time went on and I had to replace
or upgrade some of the hardware the OS unfortunately started to show its age.
Correct, the biggest "woah" moment for me was understanding why a lot of medical/dental equipment is still largely on XP or 7. The way it was explained to me at the time was that there is a tremendous amount of legal or regulatory approval involved given its mission critical status not to mention the cost of lets say an MRI or X-ray system.
Weatherman/Mark who posts here probably knows more, I think he runs IT for
a major hospital where he lives.
Matthew Munson wrote to All <=-
Since Windows 11 does not accept my Ryzen 1700x, should I upgrade it to
a 3700x on my B350-Prime Plus motherboard (i flashed my bios for this)
and perhaps buy a 1tb ssd to upgrade my storage at the same time.
Even though I loved my old Blackberry, all the app development moved towards Apple and Google/Android. That was the end of Blackberry. Same thing happened to Novell.
I have seen cases where the 24-port network switch was UL certified, but the 48-port wasn't (exact same hardware/switch - just one had more ports). So they would have to buy (2) 24-port switches vs (1) 48-port switch.
I'd say stick with Windows 10, sounds like a decent system. I'm on 10 and 1 with my desktop and laptop respectively, and I don't see a killer app for 1 yet.
Everything was much easier in Windows. Drivers, backups, networking, etc. don't remember the software name, but I used an OS/2 tape backup program at one time long ago to back up the BBS. It worked ok, but Windows software always blew away the OS2 equivalents.
OS2 was the BEST at multi-tasking DOS apps. Hands down WAY better than Windows. That is the only thing I ended up using it for, and still do. I c even run the old DOS doors in OS2, where Windows DOS session will crash.
I learn the best by hands on tinkering, but do enjoy YouTube videos for certain specific things. Normally very unique things. More often than not, I'm watching some metal video or redneck car/diesel truck channel.
My first looks at Windows 11 remind me of Windows 8 (version 2). Where most will want to run shareware to make it more like Windows 10.
The main goal of Microsoft at this point is to pull people kicking and screaming into their cloud and will hook the OS into it. Not a path that makes me happy.
Lantastic... its gonna be Novell ALL the way to the millenium. Microsoft
Weatherman wrote to Atreyu <=-
The main goal of Microsoft at this point is to pull people kicking and screaming into their cloud and will hook the OS into it. Not a path
that makes me happy.
Weatherman wrote to Gamgee <=-
Home Assistant, LibreNMS, and FluxNode to name a few. I run everything
in my virtual environment from eCS, various linux versions and various Windows desktop and server operating systems.
-Matthew Munson wrote to All <=-
Since Windows 11 does not accept my Ryzen 1700x, should I upgrade it to a 3700x on my B350-Prime Plus motherboard (i flashed my bios for this) and perhaps buy a 1tb ssd to upgrade my storage at the same time.
I'd say stick with Windows 10, sounds like a decent system. I'm on 10 and 11
with my desktop and laptop respectively, and I don't see a killer app for 11
yet.
Windows Hasta La Vista
It's time to embrace the horror. The web Microsoft365 apps run pretty well and provide a much fuller experience than G Suite - and run well on Linux browsers.
One thing I'm still not comfortable with regarding web apps is that
if your internet service goes down, you'll be unable to access/run
those programs. I still like to have locally-installed software. Otherwise, if software is all web-based (or otherwise runs from an internet server), we wouldn't need much more than dumb terminals at
home (whereas typically it's a good thing to have your own storage
and processing power at home).. In some ways, it seems like
computing is coming full-circle.
I'm also reminded of the time I went into a ScotiaBank one morning back
in the late 90s or early 2000s and was amused to see the ATMs rebooting and that they ran OS/2. I'm sure they've moved off of it by now, but
it was still neat to see.
`The main goal of Microsoft at this point is to pull people kicking and screaming into their cloud and will hook the OS into it. Not a path th makes me happy.
I used to doubt the "Windows 365" conspiracy theory but I'm starting to believe it more. Google has that model down to a science.
It's time to embrace the horror. The web Microsoft365 apps run pretty
well and provide a much fuller experience than G Suite - and run well
on Linux browsers.
One thing I'm still not comfortable with regarding web apps is that if your internet service goes down, you'll be unable to access/run those programs. I still like to have locally-installed software. Otherwise,
Atreyu wrote to Weatherman <=-
OS2 was the BEST at multi-tasking DOS apps. Hands down WAY better than Windows. That is the only thing I ended up using it for, and still do. I
even run the old DOS doors in OS2, where Windows DOS session will crash.
Agreed, NTVDM is very choppy and OS/2 runs circles around it but unfortunately I'm not in a position to change for the reasons I
mentioned before.
My spin on it was that OS/2 multitasked DOS apps amazingly well (being able to run DOS windows with Novell drivers while still having lots of memory, running lots of DOS windows, and so on...) but as soon as hardware continued to improve, that became moot.
It's time to embrace the horror. The web Microsoft365 apps run pretty and provide a much fuller experience than G Suite - and run well on L browsers.
One thing I'm still not comfortable with regarding web apps is that if your internet service goes down, you'll be unable to access/run those programs. I still like to have locally-installed software. Otherwise,
if software is all web-based (or otherwise runs from an internet
server), we wouldn't need much more than dumb terminals at home (whereas typically it's a good thing to have your own storage and processing
power at home).. In some ways, it seems like computing is coming full-circle.
Nightfox
Ahhhhh Blackberry... That was my "company wedding ring" for a decade.
And yes, I do remember being told as a teenager that I should study Novell because they will be the future. I was told to forget about Banyan Vines
or Lantastic... its gonna be Novell ALL the way to the millenium.
Microsoft wasn't even mentioned in conversation.
I thought UL cert was sortof mandatory, like CSA cert for Canadian electronics?
Exactly. Thats what I suspect many people overlook about those versions of Windows.... NT4, 2000, XP. Those to me are "real Windows" that nothing
else at the time could really compete with. Everything was so simple on
them and even
lots of complicated scenarios ultimately had a resolution.
The moment it became Vista and 7 I just saw it as eye-candy and Microsoft marketing taking over the show... I don't need sticky notes or 3d-paint
and certainly not Candy crush on the start menu of 10 Professional
edition.
Agreed, NTVDM is very choppy and OS/2 runs circles around it but unfortunately I'm not in a position to change for the reasons I mentioned before.
I used to doubt the "Windows 365" conspiracy theory but I'm starting to believe it more. Google has that model down to a science.
It's time to embrace the horror. The web Microsoft365 apps run pretty
well and provide a much fuller experience than G Suite - and run well on Linux browsers.
Prices are better than G suite, with a home use license you can get 5 Exchange mailboxes, 1TB per person, 5 app licenses, and it's $69/year.
Using eCS to manage a modern virtual environment - that rocks!
We recently explored various Microsoft cloud offerings, one of them being something called "Universal Print". This moves your print server to the cloud and also lets you set permissions for your various locations as to
who can print where, all kind of neat.
Until you realize that if you loose internet access, you can't print. You could be sitting right next to a printer, on the same network, but if your location loses internet access, no printing for you.
OS/2 is the most commonly used operating system for ATMs. Still is, but I have noticed more with Windows Embedded in there now.
Honestly there's aspects I like(d) about almost every OS I've ever used.
Used to work OS/2 support for iomega...
of course I remember very little, about the only thing I really
didn't like about OS/2 was that everything you wanted to do outside
run windows compat software was costly and that the configuration
file(s) were beyond massive.
Honestly there's aspects I like(d) about almost every OS I've ever used.
I get a kick out of trying old OSes to see if there are things I like. I'm particularly fond of AmigaOS. There are several things in AmigaOS that I enjoy that I haven't seen implemented elsewhere. It was truly before its time, considering all that was possible with it so long ago.
Yeah, in the mid-late 90s, I used to like trying different operating systems mainly for x86 PCs, since that's what I had. At one point, I had a multi-bo setup on my PC with Windows 9x, OS/2, and Linux. Now I think it's funny to think that was on a 4.5GB hard drive, which is small by today's standards..
I switched back and forth a lot in the late 90's, with Windows 2000 (not ME), I pretty much didn't look back... I'm running Linux for my personal
Yeah, in the mid-late 90s, I used to like trying different operating systems, mainly for x86 PCs, since that's what I had. At one point, I
had a multi-boot setup on my PC with Windows 9x, OS/2, and Linux. Now I think it's funny to think that was on a 4.5GB hard drive, which is small by today's standards..
Now I think it's funny to think that was on a 4.5GB hard drive,
which is small by today's standards..
Ha, that's nuts. Yeah. I remember back when having a 300mb spare HD was like...endless amounts of storage that I could never fathom of filling up.
Another interesting thing to think about here is RAM. It's amazing to think how much optimization was done to make things work with the amount of memory we had access to.
I thought a 20 megabyte hard drive for my Tandy was "big" at the time...
I would have never thought back then that I'd be sitting here now with well over 100TB, and gone from a 300 baud modem to 1Gbps fiber.
I thought a 20 megabyte hard drive for my Tandy was "big" at the time...
Ha! I'm not quite there yet but getting there!
First HD I had was with the 286 I got for the BBS, a 40Mb job. It seemed huge at the time, and being DOS 3.3 it was a 30 and 10Mb partition setup. Prior to this I'd only ever had 140k or 800k floppies.
Tracker1 wrote to boraxman <=-
I'm kind of the opposite end... I did hold on to my i7 4790K for about
5 years... currently running an r9 5950X, RTX 3080 (10gb), 128gb ram,
2tb samsung 980 pro (linux drive), and hoping to see an r9 7950X3D in
the spring, and will upgrade to that in march/april assuming it exists.
I thought a 20 megabyte hard drive for my Tandy was "big" at the time
First HD I had was with the 286 I got for the BBS, a 40Mb job. It seemed huge at the time, and being DOS 3.3 it was a 30 and 10Mb partition setup. Prior to this I'd only ever had 140k or 800k floppies.
Exactly the same for me, too. My first hard drive was when I bought my 286-12 system after selling all my Apple // stuff. It has 2MB of RAM (which was a ton back then), and my first hard drive which was a full height 40MB drive (Seagate).
Does that mean we can run AmigaOS with VirtualBox?
I'm trying to recall the specs of my earlier computers, it was either a
386 or perhaps a 486 dx system... made by a crowd now long gone in New Zealand.. I think they were called PC General..... then the next system
was by PC Direct.... New Zealand computer companies had such imaginative names heh :)
Atreyu wrote to Tracker1 <=-
I could set up a basic VPN and RDP into my system from anywhere, do
proper backups to a tape drive because it had Ntbackup built-in. These things were outrageously expensive for OS/2 or impossible, or just halfassed.
Weatherman wrote to Atreyu <=-
I would have never thought back then that I'd be sitting here now with well over 100TB, and gone from a 300 baud modem to 1Gbps fiber.
On 17 Nov 22 16:55:14, Tracker1 said the following to Acn:
I switched back and forth a lot in the late 90's, with Windows 2000
(not ME), I pretty much didn't look back... I'm running Linux for
my personal
I know I blabbed about this a few times but I was the exact same...
Windows 2000 just "sold" me on how good it was at the time.
I could set up a basic VPN and RDP into my system from anywhere, do
proper backups to a tape drive because it had Ntbackup built-in. These things were outrageously expensive for OS/2 or impossible, or just halfassed.
telnet://bbs.roonsbbs.hu:1212 <<=-
Speaking of which, I have (9) 14TB drives sitting on my desk next to me right now. Once I get that new array in place, it will take over a week to copy all the data.
do you run OS/2 or ArcaOS?
The first incarnation of realitycheckBBS had 2 30 mb drives and 2 mb of RAM. Hard to fathom that it did mostly what I'm doing now on a VM with 2 cores, 3 GB of RAM and 100 GB of disk. Of course it would fill up the
disk during a Fido mail run and crap itself, but what the heck...
I used to have to unpack Fido mail packets into separate directories per echomail area, with *.msg files for each message, then import those into the message base. Took up twice the amount of disk space for what I'd import.
Speaking of which, I have (9) 14TB drives sitting on my desk next tome We> right now. Once I get that new array in place, it will take over a week We> to copy all the data.
Now that is a lot of data :)
I know I blabbed about this a few times but I was the exact same...
Windows 2000 just "sold" me on how good it was at the time.
I could set up a basic VPN and RDP into my system from anywhere, do
proper backups to a tape drive because it had Ntbackup built-in.
These things were outrageously expensive for OS/2 or impossible, or
just halfassed.
I bought Famatech's remote administrator program when I was administering Windows NT4 and 2000 servers, and still use it to this day on the BBS.Ran recovery ops for a mid sized company for a while in the later 90s...
I still try to block out those days of swapping DDS and DLT tapes by hand.
:)
Weatherman wrote to Avon <=-
My plan is to eventually create a (10) drive RAID5 array of 14TB
drives + keep an extra as a on-hand spare. For now, I'll start
with the 98TB usable and keep one for spare, and buy more when I
see good pricing.
I should be able to remove all my 3TB drives and keep them for
spares for my other servers that still use them.
Once I get all this in place, I should have around 200TB of
running storage on the (3) servers, plus have plenty of spare
drives for swapping.
I am my own cloud storage provider. :)
Ran recovery ops for a mid sized company for a while in the later 90s... man even with a multi-tape changing backup system, it's still nasty
AF... I don't recall the tech, but figured out how to do snapshotting
(NT4 era) on the main storage server (EMC, iirc) and that was far easier 99% of the time than dealing with the often borked backups.
Got even better with Litestep, remember a pretty custom UI, that really just felt exactly how I wanted... using a lightly customized Ubuntu
Budgie setup currently. I remember Windows 2000 pretty fondly, didn't
play games on it... kept a dual boot of win98se for a long while to play games (until XP SP3, when I finally jumped to XP)... since then played
with Linux... Really like WSL2 in Win10+, but with Win11, just irritated
me a bit too much... Linux does most of what I need now, and I don't
game too much, so sticking to what works native or via steam is okay
with me.
Ran recovery ops for a mid sized company for a while in the later 90s...
man even with a multi-tape changing backup system, it's still nasty
AF... I don't recall the tech, but figured out how to do snapshotting
(NT4 era) on the main storage server (EMC, iirc) and that was far easier
99% of the time than dealing with the often borked backups.
What do you use all this storage space for? Is this a business thing,
or just for home use?
I can't stand the lack of taskbar-labels in Windows 11... and I refuse to install some buggy halfassed shareware crap to "fix it". I often have many windows open at once on a workstation with six monitors. Breaking the taskbar functionality was unacceptable.
I actually thought XP and Server 2003 were the "best" that M$ was ever to crank out. Everything beyond that just got to be eye-candy or trying to do
I agree that Windows XP and Server 2003 had the best interface. Windows 11 reminds me of Windows 8, where so many people hated the taskbar and menu tha loads of people ran a shareware program to fix it.
Weatherman wrote to Gamgee <=-
What do you use all this storage space for? Is this a business thing,
or just for home use?
It is for home use, but I do run several Internet based systems
for various thing. I also use it the very same way that Google
Photos works, for photo/video backups for our phones. I just
have an app on our phones that auto SFTPs new files in
photo/video directories to my server.
So I'm basically my own cloud. I also am a data hoarder, so I
download tons of content. Lots of old TV shows and things like
that.
Some of the storage is for disk backups of all my server VMs,
physical PCs, etc, too. And I keep 31 backups of each (one month
worth), just to be safe.
The backups use almost 24TB by itself. I also have weeks for of
DVR data for my security cameras. Video takes up lots of
storage.
Tracker1 wrote to Atreyu <=-
Got even better with Litestep, remember a pretty custom UI, that really just felt exactly how I wanted...
I still try to block out those days of swapping DDS and DLT tapes by hand.
In this household computers work for me and not the other way around. And nobody nags me to do anything. I hate being nagged. Windows 10 and 11
always nag about something. Worse than the exwife. OS updates in
particular. Theres ALWAYS some stupid OS update or Dot-net fiasco to the tune of 500mb~2gb worth of downloading. At least once or twice a month. Unacceptable.
And its 2022 and even with these lovely massive updates, the GUI is still horribly broken when you go to rename a file on an SMB share and something happens to the network connection; the entire explorer process crashes and any other related operations crash. No warning, no explanation, nothing,
not even an "unknown error" logged anywhere.
Linux is no better with some of this stuff... I just wish there was a
modern OS that would act like an OS, talk like an OS and stop looking cute or trying
to be my buddy. And doesn't need constant updates. Talks like a computer
and just runs my bloody programs.
Wow, very cool. Is the auto-SFTP app on the phone a custom/private
thing, or is it a publicly available app? I might be interested in
trying that.
Weatherman wrote to Gamgee <=-
Wow, very cool. Is the auto-SFTP app on the phone a custom/private
thing, or is it a publicly available app? I might be interested in
trying that.
Yes, it is called FolderSync (for android). I can sync folders
via SFTP from phones to directories on my server at home. No
need for Google photos or any other cloud system.
I would much rather control my own data, anyway.
I was a very early|07 |11W|09> |10adopter of that with WWIVTOSS (and
still use it today).|07 I was one of the diehards who was one of the
first few people to join othernets in other parts of the world. I had
like 10 othernets thanks to internet transport.
But I am glad technology is opening up to all of us.
I haven't used Win 11 as yet but my hunch is I may ride it out until the next OS version is released then try to move to that.. but time will
tell I guess.
Pondering chocolate is far more fun :)
Adept wrote to Avon <=-
So it seems reasonable to me for people to skip the version. I'm really only running it because I got new computers this year, and it seemed
more reasonable to have systems that were running Win 11 immediately.
I've gotten a variety of chocolate, and will eat some while typing this message, though I think the interesting food item I've been doing is my wine and gin advent calendars.
Windows 10 runs fine here, and Windows 11 won't run because this system doesn't have a TPM chip. It's a home model, I'm guessing lots of people will be unable to upgrade, and in 2025 they'll have to push the EOL
date out further.
They should just make a better operating system. Maybe it was a
conspiracy to drive new hardware sales. I might have to upgrade my
desktop to have a PCI 4.0 bus at the minimum.
So it seems reasonable to me for people to skip the version. I'm really only running it because I got new computers this year, and it seemed
more reasonable to have systems that were running Win 11 immediately.
Pondering chocolate is far more fun :)
It _is_.
I've gotten a variety of chocolate, and will eat some while typing this message, though I think the interesting food item I've been doing is my wine and gin advent calendars.
It's neat to try a couple new things each day, write down a short
review, take some pictures, etc.
Eventually I'll get the info into my wine wiki, which, while it's more work than I'd like, is a part of the fun of trying out various alcohols.
Now that computers are front-ends for
the internet, there don't appear to be many interesting differentiators. I
I struggle to figure out the killer feature Windows is bringing to the table nowadays in most use cases.
yeah I expect I'll need to move some systems across to Win 10 or 11 sooner than later... but while the lights keep blinkty blinking I'm happy - heh.
I don't think I necessarily agree with that, nor do I think computers should just be front-ends for the internet. Not everything is well
suited to run as a web/internet based app. Photo and video processing, software development, and other number-crunching tasks lend themselves
to having a powerful computer at home that you can use for those kinds
of things. Video games is another example.
Sometimes it seems like some software companies want us to use web apps though, as they can easily charge a subscription fee. In some ways it seems like a step backwards - I remember hearing about people using dumb terminals connected to powerful central mainframe computers in the 60s
and 70s.. As computers became smaller, more affordable, and more powerful, it became much easier to have a fairly powerful computer at
home that could run software locally, and generally that was seen as a good thing.
Yeah, I'm not sure any particular computer OS has any killer feature
these days. As you said though, Windows just being a known thing means that pretty much all types of software are made for Windows
(particularly gaming).
I've seen certain programs that some people just seem to love which are only made for one platform (i.e. Mac-only versions of certain programs), but I don't think there's any limiting factor where it would really need to be platform-specific.
Oddly, I've noticed that a large percentage of people who do photo &
video editing and making music (content creators) still seem to prefer Mac, and a lot of web developers seem to like working on a Mac too.
I've heard that music software for Mac in general tends to "just work"
and have low latency, but (in my limited experience) I haven't seen much problem with latency with Windows music software either.. The web devleopment connection with Mac is one thing I don't quite understand though.
affordable, and more powerful, it became much easier to have a
fairly powerful computer at home that could run software locally,
and generally that was seen as a good thing.
This is true, but it's also much easier to maintain. Build a web app, and then anyone with a browser can basically use it. You don't need to deal with customers downloading and installing things, really you can just offload all that burden onto the web browser itself. At the end of the day it lowers the burden significantly for development.
I'm not doing dev work for my job or BBS stuff or gaming, I tend to use my iPad. It's just easier and gets out of the way.
Agree, however I am sympathetic to game companies refusing to release for linux...it's a pain in the ass building something closed source and trying to support linux as a platform for your software, due to the bespoke nature of what 'linux' means for basically every type of user.
I prefer doing web dev on a Mac, I also prefer photo editing and making music on a Mac. Doing any kind of dev work in Windows has always been a bit of a nightmare for me. I use a Mac for doing dev stuff at work, but it's also an amazing personal computer. I prefer it infinitely over Windows.
Web development has its own issues though. You have to test it in multiple web browsers (and perhaps multiple versions of multiple web browsers). And for years, IE was the bane of web development as it had its own bugs and special cases you had to allow for. It seems like a
lot of hassle to have to test for multiple browsers & such.
What do you mean by "gets out of the way"?
That's true - though I think gaming support is one of the things Linux users have been wanting most. I think it's good that a big gaming
company like Steam has been supporting Linux for a little while now.
I'm curious how web development was a nightmare on Windows?
The development work I've done is more often back-end, desktop software (usually C# these days, but sometimes C++), and some mobile. I've done a little bit of web development and usually I use Windows and can't say
I've encountered any significant problems doing it.
I'm curious how web development was a nightmare on Windows?
My "dev on windows" experience historically has involved installing some 3rd party bash type thing, building a dev environment, wiring it up to work in the bash (git bash or something else), keeping everything in that environment up to date...whereas now WSL does make things a bit easier but man, that thing is a serious resource hog, and I can't traverse the filesystem well from the Windows side (or vice versa)...it's really just an annoyance and things have been much more straightforward for me to just launch my Mac and do a 'brew update' and am ready to go.
I struggle to figure out the killer feature Windows is bringing to the table core remaining major use cases:
- Gaming (linux is coming along but is still a ways off and may never catch
Ooo... sounds good. For me the challenge would be not scoffing it all before I formed a good review/view else it would all just be "yum"
I am not sure, but I suspect you could use Microsoft's Game Pass games on Linux. At least I have heard talk in that regard. If you have a proper Internet connection you can play lots of cloud games (in theory). I
don't care for modern games but if this is so then the platform is a
stepm closer to being irrelevant.
Though I _did_ put it in my wine wiki at some point, figuring that it'd
be interesting to also add the various fancy chocolates I came across.
Though I _did_ put it in my wine wiki at some point, figuring that it be interesting to also add the various fancy chocolates I came across
You have a wine wiki??? Care to share? :)
esc wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
I struggle to figure out the killer feature Windows is bringing to the table nowadays in most use cases. Now that computers are front-ends for the internet, there don't appear to be many interesting
differentiators.
esc wrote to Utopian Galt <=-
You know, this reminds me...I actually for the most part use middle of
the road hardware for my daily computing needs, throw linux on it, call
it a day...but I spend a small fortune building vintage DOS and Windows
98 machines lol. Those were the real days of meaningful innovation...
Consider that the iPad has democratized computing for groups of people that have never even owned a computer, similarly the iPhone and other smartphones. And these things don't even come with an instruction
manual. /That/ is what I mean about it staying out of the way.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
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Anyway, http://www.monoceroses.com/wine if you wanted to look.
Momentum, mostly. You mentioned Office support; I don't think it'll be
too long before Office is web-first. It exchanges their golden goose (purchasing office app licenses) for a recurring revenue model with a wider market base. Not a bad choice, looking forward.
I know people at work that use the web apps almost exclusively, even though they have the Office suite installed on their laptops.
I've sworn, every time I make a system change, that it'll be the time
that I install Linux on my desktop -- but I'm still running Windows, albeit 10 only. We'll see what I do if this PC lasts longer than
Windows 10 support.
As much as I'd love to hear the solid, satisfying KLIKK! of an AT power supply, I might be more tempted to get a thin client and throw DOS on them, They're cheap, they use modern peripherals, and my understanding
is that there's DOS support for most of the cheap network cards with packet drivers.
I think if I went retro, I'd get an old SUN box.
The iPad is an amazing tool. I use it to do research; I
can load up a ton of papers on the thing, and use tools
like Notability, LiquidText, and OmniGraffle to annotate,
take notes, design things, etc. It's probably the closest
I've seen to Engelbart's vision being realized.
If you like roguelikes, you may find my roguelike server amusing. I have only three
games in it so far but it is serviceable.
Very cool! mediawiki for content like this is perfect. I look forward to reading.
If you like roguelikes, you may find my roguelike server amusing. I have
only three
games in it so far but it is serviceable.
Ah super cool! I have a lot of roguelikes running as doors on my BBS. I /wish/ I could run Brogue but
gned game, speaking to the visuals.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
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esc wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
My current employer uses Google suite for everything and honestly doing all Office type stuff in a browser is simpler in many ways. I wish the drive integration was stronger but it all works, which is good. And the multitude of MS Office features that differentiate it from GSuite are
not very useful IMO...
godsend for me at this point in my career (I spent time in the military watching people agonize over silly slide details, it's nice to avoid this).
I know people at work that use the web apps almost exclusively, even though they have the Office suite installed on their laptops.
I actually pay for Office for my own purposes (O365 I think) and have written wrappers to make it so that I can treat MS Office applications like fully integrated desktop apps in my linux desktop. Double clicking
a Word doc will open in a standalone wrapped web Word app :)
I've sworn, every time I make a system change, that it'll be the time
that I install Linux on my desktop -- but I'm still running Windows, albeit 10 only. We'll see what I do if this PC lasts longer than
Windows 10 support.
I upgraded from Win10 to Win11 and tried very hard to like it, but
really just kept getting frustrated. I wound up blowing everything away and starting from scratch once again with linux and haven't looked
back. I just prefer the level of control I get to exert here.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
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esc wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
On the one hand I agree with you but on the other hand, having hardware Voodoo cards, hardware GUS cards, hardware MT32 (and other midi
devices), etc., with a real CRT VGA monitor, is an entirely different experience.
I /don't/ claim that it's worth the expense. But man, it's fun, and hobbies by nature aren't typically smart financial decisions. :)
I think if I went retro, I'd get an old SUN box.
We used Sun boxes at the government for a bit and I never really understood why some people are interested. What would an old SUN box do for you? Serious question?
It's like the nextcubes and stuff, they're so expensive, and I don't
even know what they would bring to the table. I would love to better understand this.
I have thought of setting an actual BBS with Roguelike DOors, but in the end of the day I find
dgamelaunch better if you just want to host terminal games. Besides, dgamelaunch is easy to adapt to
OpenBSD and its sandboxing models.
With a large company and a team that can help integrate them, Teams, Sharepoint and OneDrive are pretty powerful. There's a new feature
called Loop where you can share office content collaboratively in
Teams, in Outlook, and OneDrive/Sharepoint.
It'd be like being able to copy and paste a table into an email and
Teams, but have the recipient be able to edit it on the fly and update everywhere.
Sharepoint is the one thing lacking in GSuite - a way to create intranet sites. Teams sharing is starting to overtake Sharepoint now, to the
point where we're running out of space for it!
For smaller groups, G Suite rocks for simplicity. At home, I find myself going to docs.new and sheets.new rather than opening Word or Excel.
Oh, I wholeheartedly agree. I worked in a game company back in the '90s, and we were all in on hardware. Luckily, the company paid for hardware and game playing was encouraged. :)
Nostalgia. The hardware is beautiful to me, the SUN type 5 keyboard is
one of the best ever made, and my first *nix gig was supporting SUN hardware in my server room. I had a Sparc II at my desk at the time
with a huge (at the time) 19" monitor. While Windows and Mac were
barely multitasking, Solaris was able to run most of my infrastructure
on a couple of boxes.
I think if I went retro, I'd get an old SUN box.
We used Sun boxes at the government for a bit and I never really understood why some people are interested. What would an old SUN box do for you? Serious question?
It's like the nextcubes and stuff, they're so expensive, and I don't
even know what they would bring to the table. I would love to better understand this.
I think if I went retro, I'd get an old SUN box.
We used Sun boxes at the government for a bit and I never really understood why some people are interested. What would an old SUN box for you? Serious question?
Nostalgia. The hardware is beautiful to me, the SUN type 5 keyboard is
one of the best ever made, and my first *nix gig was supporting SUN hardware in my server room. I had a Sparc II at my desk at the time
with a huge (at the time) 19" monitor. While Windows and Mac were
barely multitasking, Solaris was able to run most of my infrastructure
on a couple of boxes.
It's like the nextcubes and stuff, they're so expensive, and I don't even know what they would bring to the table. I would love to better understand this.
The NeXT (hope I got the capitalization right) had display postscript
when everyone else had jaggedy screen letters, keyboards and mice that felt luxurious by comparison to the cheap PC keyboards of the time, and tools to create apps quickly, if memory serves.
I have thought of setting an actual BBS with Roguelike DOors, but in th end of the day I find
dgamelaunch better if you just want to host terminal games. Besides, dgamelaunch is easy to adapt to
OpenBSD and its sandboxing models.
I'd love to learn more about how each of these games is able to share things
I mean, I think this is technically fine, but I would love to find better ne
Brogue would be so great if only there was an 80x25 mode I could use. Alas.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
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being something called "Universal Print". This moves your print server to the cloud and also lets you set permissions for your various
locations as to who can print where, all kind of neat.
Until you realize that if you loose internet access, you can't print.
You could be sitting right next to a printer, on the same network, but
if your location loses internet access, no printing for you.
esc wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Oh, I wholeheartedly agree. I worked in a game company back in the '90s, and we were all in on hardware. Luckily, the company paid for hardware and game playing was encouraged. :)
Nice! What company, if I may ask? I feel like we've discussed this
before but I'm drawing a blank hehe.
esc wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
With a large company and a team that can help integrate them, Teams, Sharepoint and OneDrive are pretty powerful. There's a new feature
called Loop where you can share office content collaboratively in
Teams, in Outlook, and OneDrive/Sharepoint.
Perhaps, yeah. My biggest company had 2000 people at its peak. My
current one is tipping the scales at under 400 :)
For smaller groups, G Suite rocks for simplicity. At home, I find myself going to docs.new and sheets.new rather than opening Word or Excel.
Funny, we are basically at opposite ends on tihs one :) I use gsuite
for work and MS for private purposes.
tenser wrote to esc <=-
A PC with a Pentium
was only half as good as a SPARCstation or SGI, but a quarter
of the cost, and the trend line was heading towards favoring the
PC within a decade.
tenser wrote to esc <=-
A PC with a Pentium
was only half as good as a SPARCstation or SGI, but a quarter
of the cost, and the trend line was heading towards favoring the
PC within a decade.
In 1999, I ran the web site for a company that used a Sun Enterprise 250 for Oracle and an Ultra 2 for the web front-end running Tomcat. When we expanded the site, I bought several 1u intel boxes and threw Linux on them, and they ran the web site. I'm pretty sure they cost less than another Ultra 2. That was the tipping point for me.
Eidos Interactive. The company that did Tomb Raider, Deus Ex, Daikatana, Final Fantasy 7, Hitman and Thief.
As much as I'd love to hear the solid, satisfying KLIKK! of an AT pow supply, I might be more tempted to get a thin client and throw DOS on them, They're cheap, they use modern peripherals, and my understandi is that there's DOS support for most of the cheap network cards with packet drivers.
On the one hand I agree with you but on the other hand, having hardware Voodoo cards, hardware GUS cards, hardware MT32 (and other midi
devices), etc., with a real CRT VGA monitor, is an entirely different experience.
I /don't/ claim that it's worth the expense. But man, it's fun, and hobbies by nature aren't typically smart financial decisions. :)
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