Hi everyone,
I'm very new to EchoIRLP, however a small group including myself have installed
it on the local repeaters PiIRLP node, and it's working perfectly.
Except that we had hoped to run it in conference mode, so a number of single user nodes could connect for nets, etc.
The following quote is from the user manual:
"Do not change MaxConferenceClients = 2: This tbd.conf setting
controls how many Echolink users are allowed to connect. One client is
your IRLP node which leaves one for an Echolink connection. Do Not
change this or EchoIRLP won’t work properly and may not start at all."
Does this mean that only one user is ever allowed to connect at a time?
Sorry if this is a question covered somewhere else...
Steven VK2STG


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--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
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Steven,

It is not a software limitation, but an edict from the EchoLink
management team.

EchoLink now requires a $40 per year payment to operate a conference.
See the last bullet point on the page below:

https://secure.echolink.org/conf.htm

If they determine your installation of The Bridge (tbd) is configured
for mre than two connections, it will be banned.

Ed
W6YJ


On 4/29/2021 3:01 PM, stevenvk2stg@gmail.com wrote:

Hi everyone,
I'm very new to EchoIRLP, however a small group including myself have

installed it on the local repeaters PiIRLP node, and it's working perfectly.

Except that we had hoped to run it in conference mode, so a number of single

user nodes could connect for nets, etc.

The following quote is from the user manual:
"Do not change MaxConferenceClients = 2: This tbd.conf setting
controls how many Echolink users are allowed to connect. One client is
your IRLP node which leaves one for an Echolink connection. Do Not
change this or EchoIRLP won’t work properly and may not start at all."
Does this mean that only one user is ever allowed to connect at a time?
Sorry if this is a question covered somewhere else...
Steven VK2STG

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--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (432:1/101)

Steven; the best way to achieve this would be to get permission from an
iRLP conference node owner, and then connect all your end points into
that conference node. Conf nodes are set up with sufficient bandwidth to handle
the audio streams. Perhaps someone else can hop in here with other options.

73 Paul, VA3PC  (VE3ERX/R Node 2649)

On 2021-04-29 18:01, stevenvk2stg@gmail.com wrote:

Hi everyone,
I'm very new to EchoIRLP, however a small group including myself have

installed it on the local repeaters PiIRLP node, and it's working perfectly.

Except that we had hoped to run it in conference mode, so a number of single

user nodes could connect for nets, etc.

The following quote is from the user manual:
"Do not change MaxConferenceClients = 2: This tbd.conf setting
controls how many Echolink users are allowed to connect. One client is
your IRLP node which leaves one for an Echolink connection. Do Not
change this or EchoIRLP won’t work properly and may not start at all."
Does this mean that only one user is ever allowed to connect at a time?
Sorry if this is a question covered somewhere else...
Steven VK2STG

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--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
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Hi, thanks Ed and Paul,
That explains it - just so I'm clear, if our club decided to set up a conference (and pay the $40), would it work with EchoIRLP? Or would we have to run a separate system using the Windows application?
Thanks very much for your quick replies,
Steven VK2STG


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Oops! I forgot to say that Paul's suggestion does sound like the way to go. But
my last question is mostly just so that I've got full info to pass on the other club members.
Steven


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--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
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As others have noted, EchoLink administration limits theBridge (tbd) conferencing to paid conferences. EchoIRLP uses tbd, so if EchoLink
servers detect more than 2 connections, they may delist your EchoLink node.

Another issue you "may" encounter with the Raspberry PI is the ability of
the PI to carry the load of multiple connections. I do not know the
connection limit of a Raspberry PI running EchoIRLP, but I know it has one.

Alternatives include requesting your own EchoLink conference , and setting
up a conference server using Windows PC Echolink or theBridge software.

You may also want to investigate setting up an experimental IRLP node. See < http://experimental.irlp.net> and scroll down below the list of nodes to
view some additional information. Many IRLP owners have set up experimental nodes. One benefit of an experimental IRLP node is you can set it up to
allow cross connecting IRLP and EchoLink nodes. Some of us use theLinkbox (tlb), an enhanced version of theBridge software, on a VPS system to do
this. Even Allstar nodes are being connected to experimental IRLP nodes.

Regards,
David M.
WD5M


On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 5:08 PM <stevenvk2stg@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi everyone,
I'm very new to EchoIRLP, however a small group including myself have installed it on the local repeaters PiIRLP node, and it's working perfectly. Except that we had hoped to run it in conference mode, so a number of
single user nodes could connect for nets, etc.
The following quote is from the user manual:
"Do not change MaxConferenceClients = 2: This tbd.conf setting
controls how many Echolink users are allowed to connect. One client is
your IRLP node which leaves one for an Echolink connection. Do Not
change this or EchoIRLP won’t work properly and may not start at all."
Does this mean that only one user is ever allowed to connect at a time?
Sorry if this is a question covered somewhere else...
Steven VK2STG

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--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
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I don't know where this information is coming from, but it's either inaccurate or out of date.

There is no limitation as far as EchoLink is concerned to operating an EchoIRLP
node in a mode that allows conferencing. The only stipulation is that is be a
true gateway to RF (-L or -R callsign suffix).

The conference validation procedure applies only to nodes with conference callsigns (like *CONF*) which are not RF gateways, and those must be run using the standard tbd distribution rather than EchoIRLP.


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--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
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Ok, so if I change the maxconferenceclients setting mentioned in my first post,
is our Pi likely to roll up into a ball, never to work again, (hi) or is the only possible problem with Echolink maybe refusing the connection? Sorry, I'm just trying to get my head around the different options, and don't mind experimenting!


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--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
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Jonathan,

Thank you for responding to this thread. This connection limit with
EchoIRLP's use of theBridge has been around for many years. I suspect it
may have had some truth to it at some point in the past. I know everyone appreciates you setting the record straight.

I encourage anyone who needs more EchoLink connections on EchoIRlP to
increase the size for MaxConferenceClients in tbd.conf.

In case you don't know Jonathan Taylor (K1RFD), please look for his name at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EchoLink> and the EchoLink documentation at < http://echolink.org/>.

Regards,
David M.
WD5M


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--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
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Depends on the PI model... The 3B does not have a true Gb network port and from
memory it tops out at 300Mb. The PI4 has a true Gb interface and would survive better. The 3B may also run low on memory which will limit connections. Best option would be to play with it and see what the physical limit is.

Steve VK2YLD
Node 6732


-----Original Message-----
From: echoirlp@groups.io [mailto:echoirlp@groups.io] On Behalf Of stevenvk2stg@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, 30 April 2021 9:57 AM
To: echoirlp@groups.io
Subject: Re: [echoirlp] Can EchoIRLP support conferencing?

Ok, so if I change the maxconferenceclients setting mentioned in my first post,
is our Pi likely to roll up into a ball, never to work again, (hi) or is the only possible problem with Echolink maybe refusing the connection? Sorry, I'm just trying to get my head around the different options, and don't mind experimenting!







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--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
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Keep in mind that each EchoLink connection consumes only about 15 kbps bandwidth, so even a 100-connection conference would use about 1.5 megabits upstream.

I don't know the specific amount of memory consumption for each additional node
in the conference in tbd, but it's probably less than a kilobyte, so a 100-node conference would consume 100kB additional memory -- one tenth of a megabyte.


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--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
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On 30/4/21 9:23 am, Jonathan Taylor wrote:

I don't know where this information is coming from, but it's either

inaccurate or out of date.

There is no limitation as far as EchoLink is concerned to operating an

EchoIRLP node in a mode that allows conferencing. The only stipulation is that
is be a true gateway to RF (-L or -R callsign suffix).

The conference validation procedure applies only to nodes with conference

callsigns (like *CONF*) which are not RF gateways, and those must be run using the standard tbd distribution rather than EchoIRLP.

You are correct Jonathan, but the EchoIRLP issue is a subtly different
one, and it's really a side effect of enforcement of other Echolink
policies.

Echolink (quite rightly) doesn't allow -L or -R callsigns to be used as conferences without RF.  It is this policy that EchoIRLP nodes are
collateral damage of.  When tbd has more than 2 connections, it
identifies as a conference server to the Echolink network, and is
blocked from logging in with it's -L or -R callsign, despite the fact
that the EchoIRLP node (by definition and policy!) has an RF interface.

So, EchoIRLP nodes aren't targeted, but existing policy prevents them participating on Echolink in "local conference" mode.

--
73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com



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--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
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Hi Tony.

That sounds like it may be a bug.
Are you saying that EchoIRLP changes its version number identifier during login, when conferencing is enabled?


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On 30/4/21 12:42 pm, Jonathan Taylor wrote:

Hi Tony.

That sounds like it may be a bug.
Are you saying that EchoIRLP changes its version number identifier during

login, when conferencing is enabled?
You would have to ask Skip what he did to work around the policy,
because initially, there was a brief period where EchoIRLP wouldn't work
at all, because tbd was ALWAYS identified as a conference, so I believe
there was a change made so it would report a different version when
running on an EchoIRLP node, but in practice, that change only allowed a
node with a single link to work.

I think that also a specific configuration of the Speak Freely ports
(only used with EchoIRLP) may be needed as well to make it look like an EchoIRLP node, but not 100% sure on that.  This particular configuration
is only useful for that purpose.  But I do recall it was all a
workaround to enable some level of EchoIRLP functionality at all, while complying with the Echolink policies.

--
73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com



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--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
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Interesting, a quick cursory scan of the tbd source found these comments
below in tbd dirclient.c. We might ask Skip what he remembers. It's been a long time though. Eighteen years? I'm glad Tony remembers so much! I'll
scan the source later to see what it actually reports to the directory
servers.

It would seem that EchoLink servers would consider the type of user
connection, e.g. *conferencename* in determining if the connection is in
fact a conference. Since other EchoLink clients are allowed multiple connections, I agree that tbd should work that way too.

Revision 1.17 2004/11/27 22:09:26 wb6ymh

1. Modified version reporting to use bEchoIrlpMode flag.
Revision 1.16 2004/11/22 00:52:56 wb6ymh
1. Detect EchoIRLP by SF_Port != SF_ReplyPort instead of SF_ReplyPort !=
SF_AUDIO_PORT. Allows conferences to use nonstandard ports without
triggering an EchoIRLP version string.
Revision 1.15 2004/05/29 17:25:22 wb6ymh
...
3. Changed version string sent to EchoLink directory servers from v.vvB to
v.vvI when tbd is used with the EchoIRLP project.

David M.
WD5M

On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 12:35 AM Tony Langdon <vk3jed@vkradio.com> wrote:

On 30/4/21 12:42 pm, Jonathan Taylor wrote:

Hi Tony.

That sounds like it may be a bug.
Are you saying that EchoIRLP changes its version number identifier

during login, when conferencing is enabled?
You would have to ask Skip what he did to work around the policy,
because initially, there was a brief period where EchoIRLP wouldn't work
at all, because tbd was ALWAYS identified as a conference, so I believe
there was a change made so it would report a different version when
running on an EchoIRLP node, but in practice, that change only allowed a
node with a single link to work.

I think that also a specific configuration of the Speak Freely ports
(only used with EchoIRLP) may be needed as well to make it look like an EchoIRLP node, but not 100% sure on that. This particular configuration
is only useful for that purpose. But I do recall it was all a
workaround to enable some level of EchoIRLP functionality at all, while complying with the Echolink policies.

--
73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com

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--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
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It looks like there is a flag in configvars.c called bEchoIrlpMode, which is set only according to the condition that SF_Port != SF_ReplyPort in the configuration, which is presumably the case (only) in an EchoIRLP installation.
I don't see it depending on any other condition, such as conferencing being enabled.

Has anyone tested this recently?


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On 30/4/21 10:18 pm, Jonathan Taylor wrote:

It looks like there is a flag in configvars.c called bEchoIrlpMode, which is

set only according to the condition that SF_Port != SF_ReplyPort in the configuration, which is presumably the case (only) in an EchoIRLP installation.
I don't see it depending on any other condition, such as conferencing being enabled.
That's what I recall Skip intending the condition to be, but for some
reason, people have reported login failures, when MaxClients > 2,
IIRC.    Will need some testing with packet sniffing to see what tbd is telling the servers under various test conditions.  2 is a special
number, because that's the number of connections tbd sees, when there's
a single Echolink client connected.  The second connection is Speak
Freely to the IRLP binaries.

--
73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com



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Thanks a lot to everyone here for your answers - and the hard work that must have been put in to make EchoIRLP work!
A bit of the discussion has gone slightly over my head... but it sounds like for the moment we (the Snowy Mountains Amateur Radio Club) will simply use EchoIRLP as is for the time being. As was mentioned earlier, we could arrange to use a conference node, for nets etc.
Having said that, if you do find out how to make it work in conference mode, I'd be very pleased!

Steven VK2STG


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Hi again,
I've just changed the MaxConferenceClients setting to 6 (thought it wouldn't do
much harm to try it) and so far it seems to work fine... Conferencing works although I've only tried with 2 echolink connections at a time, so far. We'll see if it keeps working!

Steven VK2STG - - still fiddling with the VK2RFS-R node.


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On 4/5/21 12:41 pm, stevenvk2stg@gmail.com wrote:

Hi again,
I've just changed the MaxConferenceClients setting to 6 (thought it wouldn't

do much harm to try it) and so far it seems to work fine... Conferencing works although I've only tried with 2 echolink connections at a time, so far. We'll see if it keeps working!

Steven VK2STG - - still fiddling with the VK2RFS-R node.

Interesting, that's contrary to previous experience.  I wonder if
something's changed on the servers.

--
73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com



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